Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[Nav_Fae]

I find it really jarring they won't tell us what happened to Azem just to preserve people's self inserted role play over critical lore elements that control the entire plot of the game. It's really frustrating to not receive answers because some people might have their immersion broken over it. The fact headcanon is left to Azem's fate, really upsets me as a person who has done extensive lore research over the subject.

But if I had to guess, Azem probably opposed Hydalyn and Zodiark plans because they thought they could find another solution. Azem probably went out to slay monsters and save lives all the way until the sundered happened. Azem may have even went after Metition, but failed because Dynamis. This seems like most logical outcome if the Scions were to suggest a plan like this in the modern era, the WoL wouldn't kill them but they would probably abandon the cause.. G'arha managed to rewrite the future so its highly probable that Azem thought they could do it too. Infact anyone that knows what the future holds would attempt to rewrite it so this is probably what happened. Azem likely didn't interfere with Zodiark or Hydalyn because they probably never found a solution of their own and time was of essence.

In addition to that, Yoshi mentions that Venat was very much an ancient like Emet was and I think it's safe to assume that Azem would also be very much like an ancient too. Honestly, why wouldn't they be considering who their friends were? The Azems seem to have a very chaotic good or chaotic neutral personality. I see a lot of people are upset with Venat and morality but I think we need to remember that morals today are going to be very different than that of ancients. You have to remember that the ancients especially in ancient times are going to be Super Boomers. They have creation powers and are aware of reincarnation. They even commit suicide when they retire from work. Trying to apply today's concept of morality retroactively to a civilization of pseudo gods just isn't going to work. Even Emet doesn't consider us truly alive. It's pretty clear that modern morality is not a consideration to these ancients because they have their own. And sacrificing lives does not seem to be a concern among any of the ancients. The Final Days is a problem because it makes you super dead. No reincarnation. And if regular death is the price to prevent super death, all the ancients except for Azem seem to think it worth the sacrifice. Venat probably would have went along with the Zodiark plan had we not interfered. I think we're trying a bit to hard to apply reality logic and morals to a fantasy setting with
Godds, magic, and a confirmed after life. Its even possible to resurrect the dead. And Hydalyn even lives in that life stream which either adds or removes from her guilt as she interacts with the souls there. I also think living on ancient souls for 12000 years will probably make it pretty difficult to "get with the times and change your ways", so to speak. We're also forgetting that people sacrificed themselves to see Venat's plan through. One ancient even offered to take her spot as Hydalyn for her. So when people want to focus solely on Venat, we need to remember that she had a cult following backing her up and others also willing to commit genocide. Are the ancients even morals?

Also with Venat as our senior and mentor Azem, it really makes you wonder how much like them was the original Azem? If one Azem was responsible for all of this, what could that say about us?

The plot is so far into Kingdom Hearts level of confusing that instead of giving us answers, the devs say to head Canon over it if you don't like something.

[Kozh]

I do at least try to be understanding and try to see the perspective of those disagree with me, until it’s made clear that it’s not reciprocated.

Sorry to say, but I never get the feeling that you try to see other's perspective. It's hard to believe when you went to public forum, then said "gonna interrupt the echo chamber" just because some similar minded people were having a conversation. SpectrePhantasia wasn't even confrontational in their post, you're the one who decides to feel insulted all of the sudden. Using a capslock or two isn't equal to them yelling at you.

At this point why should I. All I get for my opinions is sneering and condescension. Why should I offer anymore good faith in these conversations?

I won't dismiss the possibility of someone being rude to you, but why take it on other people who doesn't have anything to do with it? Also, all you get is sneering and condescension? Idk about you but that feels kinda rude to people who support and upvotes your post.

Yet she reacts with surprise when we mention Elpis. Or what about her statement when leave to go back to our time? (Combined speech in all four languages)

See, THIS is the Venat I love. That's why I said in one of my previous post that pre-elpis venat and post-elpis venat are written for different story directions. Pre-elpis venat is the one who says "[the Ancients] are flawed, but I'm going to save it, warts and all" and "nothing is impossible". She's the one who had traveled the world, find the beauty of both her world and people, and want to save it. Meanwhile post-elpis venat is written more as "the end justify the means". If the sundering had a term&condition that explains how it comes with the risk of rejoining and how sparing emet would significantly increase that risk, she definitely read and tick the box. Even if she meant for emet to survive for his role in ultima Thule alone (though it's near impossible since she can't predict that far), it doesn't change the fact she accepted the chance for rejoining to happen.

[Kozh]

I’d think dividing her people to such an extent as to require Elidibus to return would denote effort.

Yet he still doesn't know about meteion. If venat decides to not tell everyone before final days happen because she doesn't want to instigate panic, then after final days has passed and zodiark was summoned, shouldn't it be the best time to tell them? And per elidibus dialogue, it looks like venat faction never seek peaceful option. It was elidibus who wanted reconciliation and was forced to fight hydaelyn.

Baked into that is the assumption that she only desires one outcome above all others. The fact is she nearly sent the timeline in all sorts of directions during her time as Hydaelyn, for no reason under this perspective. Explain why create WoL in any of the calamities that were necessary to occur. Explain why bother granting the blessing to those in 1.0 who canonically did not survive.

Like you said before, maybe she want to make sure she's not that weak by the time she had to help us. Or maybe she want to "lessen the pain" (lol).

But nah, the real reason is because it was written way before Endwalker. After all, the writers were forced to retcon her explanation of zodiark from HW by having the Watcher to basically goes "yeah, she kiiiind of lying, but that's because she doesn't want to lose your faith tho".

Argue this point all you like, the writers clearly don’t agree.

I mean, we're allowed to disagree with the writer, but fine I'm willing to suspend disbelief for now considering this isn't a thread to discuss the writing itself.

Idk, maybe by stating a clear fact that death is a natural part of life and desperately clinging to the idea that suffering and unforeseen ends can be prevented in their entirety is a recipe for destruction.

And we saw how effective it was by being vague like that. Death is not natural for them. They don't know what will happen should they choose the "eradicate sorrow" path. They don't even know what this "destruction" means or how it relates to their suffering and the final days.

[MikkoAkure]

The plot is so far into Kingdom Hearts level of confusing that instead of giving us answers, the devs say to head Canon over it if you don't like something.

I don't think the writers care about the story as much as some of the people here in these forums. It's not necessarily a slight against the writers themselves, there are always going to be people on the internet who get way invested into something and pour a lot more emotional energy into it than I think the writers were expecting there to be and that is evident by a lot of Yoshi-P's responses during the Q&A.

People can do what they like, but I think a lot of people in this thread need to chill out and watch a sunset or something. Wrote a response the other day and someone had a response to something else with 4 likes in less than 2 minutes.

[thegreatonemal]

The sources Lauront provided are not saying what you are portraying them as. You're free to read into them differently but the sources provided it make it pretty clear that Zodiark's Tempering was not the same sort of Tempering as that which the likes of Leviathan and Lakshmi were inflicting upon their followers, nor were the Convocation lacking the ability to make decisions that went against what Elidibus/Zodiark desired. We see this frequently throughout the game, such as when Nabriales gets hasty and puts his own plan into action and again when Fandaniel decides to hijack Zodiark. There's also Emet accompanying the player character and Scions throughout Norvrandt where he gives them information and even brings Y'shtola back from the 'dead'. None of which he would be able to do if he were bound entirely to Zodiark's will.

Perhaps most important, however, is the aspects in Lauront's post that outline that the Convocation itself was divided over how to handle the way forward where saving Etheirys was concerned. Again, something that would not happen if they were simply interested in feeding souls to Zodiark and nothing else. Elidibus took his leave of Zodiark and proved that, yes, actually, the Ancients really could bring back their loved ones.

They were also under no obligation to go along with what Venat was suggesting. We already know - thanks to hindsight - that her opposition to the third round of sacrifices was not based on the act of sacrifice itself so much as Meteion's report. Something she failed to outline to the Convocation in the first place. Perhaps if she had been open and honest she might have been able to convince her people to take a different path, though we'll never know as she never bothered to make every effort to save her civilisation and species from extinction. In actuality, she inflicted genocide upon every last man, woman and child amongst the Ancients and stripped away everything that made them into them. Then proceeded to support further acts of genocide in the name of her 'grand plan' which led to untold levels of suffering across the board.

I already went over how tempering doesn't always turn one into a mndless follower. None of your examples support your point. Nabriales's plan was to do something with the staff to cause another rejoining. Perfectly in line to what Zodiark would desire. Fandaniel is another matter seeing as he never wanted to go back to the old world. Amon always wanted to kill every. I suppose just having the memories doesn't make you tempered. Emet doesn't have that excuse and he explains multiple times to the party that his end goal is the rejoining his goals never changed, just the method used to get there. Violence on his part would just end in his death like Lahabrea. Weather or not you wanna assume that he could tell we were Azem and he thought his friend would help him out like old times, while also forgetting that said friend was against summoning Zodiark in the first place and would never help him with that would further support him being tempered and not being able to do anything that didn't involve Zodiark free. He just wasn't hostile from the beginning because he hoped that by telling us the truth of the world we would be of one mind and on his side. Again, nothing to suggest he was going against the will of his primal.

The convocation wasn't divided, their people as a whole were. There were those who sided with the convocation and those that didn't. Those fierce debates are what caused Elidbus to pull himself away from Zodiark to do his job of mediation and it failed because the people on the convocation wouldn't relent on their chosen course. That's what Elidbus is lamenting in that source you and the other person have cited. You are free to believe otherwise, but that's just fancanon on your part.

No one said they had to agree with her plans. With hindsight we know that their established plan doesn't do anything to fix the problem. The way dyanimis works is such that their very biology is a burden and their plans basically amount to hide behind zodiark. Not to mention you and lots of other people over look something. Did the people who gave themselves in the first to sacrifices want to be brought back? The entire point was that they would give up their lives to save everyone else. Did they only do it because they knew they would be brought back? Given what we know of their society that kinda tracks, they've shown they don't really care about anything that isn't them. That would make Emet's assertion fall flat if they were just expecting everything to be as it was before the final days. You assertion that she didn't try and talk is false. %.3 and the msq prove you wrong. Her faction did try, it didn't work so plan sunder it was. It was a gamble but it was better than certain death. She herself knows it was a horrible thing to have to do.

[Shookbeast]

I find it really jarring they won't tell us what happened to Azem just to preserve people's self inserted role play over critical lore elements that control the entire plot of the game... (cut for space)

I find the Azem plot thread fascinating and under-examined as well. If it makes you feel any better - I am almost wholly on board with the theory that we’ll eventually play as Azem, because our WOL is literally Azem through time travel shenanigans. If this is true, then the producers/writers might be dodging a lot of questions because for them any answer would be a spoiler (perhaps the biggest spoiler). We’d play as Azem. Establish ourselves in the past. Meet our Ancient buddies all for the first time. Quest. Stop volcanoes. And perhaps search for an alternate to the Sundering.

Azem being “us” would explain why all the Ancients thought Azem was such a weirdo - because Azem didn’t behave like an Ancient at all. (Might even explain why Venat chose to stick around. She wanted to keep an eye on us).

A story twist like this, would also likely be end-game for them - so they wouldn’t want to talk about it because it’s not going to happen for a while, (possibly not until the last expansion).

Or, they could do the whole time travel aspect sooner than later - and fudge a way for our WOL to both “save” the sundered and their own timeline - allowing us to go back in time sooner (the 6.* patches) and completely wrap up the Ancients storyline now that the Hydaelyn/Zodiark conflict is over. Then we somehow zap back to our timeline. Maybe that’s why we have a giant time-machine city waiting in the wings…

[KizuyaKatogami]

I don't think the writers care about the story as much as some of the people here in these forums. It's not necessarily a slight against the writers themselves, there are always going to be people on the internet who get way invested into something and pour a lot more emotional energy into it than I think the writers were expecting there to be and that is evident by a lot of Yoshi-P's responses during the Q&A.

People can do what they like, but I think a lot of people in this thread need to chill out and watch a sunset or something. Wrote a response the other day and someone had a response to something else with 4 likes in less than 2 minutes.

So we’re back to the whole, stop looking too deep in the lore-filled story that this mmo prides itself on. interesting…

[MikkoAkure]

So we’re back to the whole, stop looking too deep in the lore-filled story that this mmo prides itself on. interesting…

You can enjoy the lore, but getting too emotionally invested in it or taking it personal is something else entirely.

[Caurcas]

The Ancients and Meteion plot is a writing nightmare and they never should have wrote it.

[Rulakir]

In addition to that, Yoshi mentions that Venat was very much an ancient like Emet was and I think it's safe to assume that Azem would also be very much like an ancient too. Honestly, why wouldn't they be considering who their friends were? The Azems seem to have a very chaotic good or chaotic neutral personality. I see a lot of people are upset with Venat and morality but I think we need to remember that morals today are going to be very different than that of ancients.

"Ere Our Curtain Falls" would imply this wasn't the case with our Azem. The issue with Venat, despite being no different than Emet or Hermes, is her depiction. She is a protagonist, the others are antagonists. Had they wanted to be genuine about 'flexible' morality with the Ancients then Venat should've been portrayed much differently. The WoL has no choice but to clean up her mess having been thrust into the position through circumstance and manipulation, but we don't have to like her or think what she did was right. The game not offering diverse dialog options played into this as well, there's no point at which you can say anything critical to her and the dialog options you do get are essentially "which version of tearful goodbye would you like? (for the person responsible for everything except the cause of the Final Days)"

We're also forgetting that people sacrificed themselves to see Venat's plan through. One ancient even offered to take her spot as Hydalyn for her. So when people want to focus solely on Venat, we need to remember that she had a cult following backing her up and others also willing to commit genocide.

We don't know what they knew. The Anyder cutscene implies she didn't tell them the full story of what would happen to them. Given that Hyadelyn has a history of deceit, this would still be within her character to withhold information "for the greater good".

I don't think the writers care about the story as much as some of the people here in these forums. It's not necessarily a slight against the writers themselves, there are always going to be people on the internet who get way invested into something and pour a lot more emotional energy into it than I think the writers were expecting there to be and that is evident by a lot of Yoshi-P's responses during the Q&A.

Unfortunately, this does seem to be the case. The Q&A made it quite obvious the writers/devs don't consider the finer points of the lore that fans tend to pore over, which is disappointing. I've always been heavily into the lore of any game series I play, so going forward trying to enjoy FFXIV on a surface level without any deep diving is not going to be as enjoyable. Having said that, I still would've been bothered by EW. It's like watching someone kick a puppy and all the bystanders assure you that it'll lead to the best possible outcome. It just didn't work for me.