Dark Knight Megathread

[Lyth]

There are a few options with Living Dead.

1) Living Dead has a shorter recast than Holmgang, UI elements show how much healing is required to cleanse the effect, and the death prevention effect no longer ends when you reach the healing target. This is my least favorite and still doesn't give the player any agency.
2) Living Dead is Holmgang, with the same recast.
3) Living Dead is Holmgang, but also gives you additional healing based on damage dealt and/or damage received while the effect is active.
4) Living Dead is Holmgang, but when the effect ends, it resets your HP back to the total it was at the time that you originally activated it.
5) Living Dead is Holmgang, but once you hit 1 HP it becomes an invuln. This is the point where you'd have to re-evaluate the recast relative to Superbolide.
6) Living Dead prevents any attack that would kill you, and heals you (up to X% of your max HP) instead. Attacks that wouldn't kill you still do full damage.
7) Living Dead prevents both damage and healing while it is active.

What won't work are invuln conditions that cost the player dps to use it. You could argue that the first suggestion should be off the table on that principle alone because it shifts the burden of responsibility and cost on to the healer. Solutions that reduce the amount of healing required are just variations on 1. I've also seen ideas similar to Warcraft's stagger mechanic (i.e. convert lethal damage into a DoT effect that you have to survive through), but that's still a nuisance to use on a tank that has weak self-healing. I think what I'd like to see is a button that the player doesn't feel guilty about pressing.

The simplest change for Blood Weapon is to just convert it to 5 stacks of 600 MP/10 blood and call it a day. Part of me wonders what would happen if Blood Weapon or Delirium gave you a 1.5 second GCD, but no, let's resist that thought for now.

Oblation is the most difficult problem to address. It's a great animation. But the effect is underwhelming. It feels like it was intended as an upgrade to TBN, except that they were concerned about the %DR effect preventing the bubble from popping. But what if we went with something thematically similar to the other tank's upgrades: i.e. If TBN breaks within X seconds, you gain an additional damage prevention effect +/- additional healing? Here's an example:

The Blackest Night: Creates a barrier around target that absorbs damage totalling 25% of target's maximum HP. Duration 7s.
Grants Dark Arts when barrier is completely absorbed.
Additional Effect: Grants Oblation to target. Duration 4s.
Oblation Effect: If barrier is completely absorbed, restores HP to target and creates a barrier which nullifies damage equaling HP restored. Cure Potency X. Duration Y.

So now if you use it on a very spiky hit like a tankbuster, you get more value out of it. That might make for a more interesting solution.

I have mixed feelings about Dark Mind and Dark Missionary. I think Dark Missionary and Heart of Light should be on a shorter recast than Shake and Veil, given that they're less powerful effects on top of being conditional to damage type. This is especially true after the buffs to both Shake and Veil this expansion which add in additional healing effects. I also feel that HoL/Missionary should have something to differentiate them from each other, even if its minor. I'd less inclined to do anything with Dark Mind, especially if the above issues are addressed. I understand that it's situational, but I wouldn't trade it for the likes of Camo, for example.

I'd forgotten to ask about the Weaponskill/Spell point. It's a broader issue that affects multiple jobs. That being said, DRK has all of 3 spells, of which two are only used in AoE. They should address this and look into creating a single 'Haste' stat that combines both Skill and Spell speed, but I don't mind waiting until 7.x for this.

...

I think that you at least need to specify what the design problem is. Right now Delirium has you press Bloodspiller/Quietus three times. I don't think that qualifies as spam, especially when you consider the likes of Requiescat or Atonement. And again, this comes back to the fact that we really have only 4 single target weaponskills. If you're not pressing Bloodspiller, you're doing your base 1-2-3 combo. I don't know what permutation of these 4 GCDs is going to create an exciting burst window for you.

What you could do is this. Next expansion, make TBN directly give you a free Edge/Flood without granting Dark Arts. Have Edge and Flood instead grant you a Dark Arts stack. Introduce in two higher potency weaponskills that form a second combo which only can be accessed when Dark Arts or Delirium is active. That leaves you one action for a finisher of your choice to round everything off. Now you have more unique buttons to press. But the underlying issue isn't Delirium itself. It's that the job itself has only 3-4 unique GCDs to work with most of the time. That's why the design problem needs to be a specific one, or else you address the wrong issue.

[shao32]

I think that you at least need to specify what the design problem is. Right now Delirium has you press Bloodspiller/Quietus three times. I don't think that qualifies as spam, especially when you consider the likes of Requiescat or Atonement. And again, this comes back to the fact that we really have only 4 single target weaponskills. If you're not pressing Bloodspiller, you're doing your base 1-2-3 combo. I don't know what permutation of these 4 GCDs is going to create an exciting burst window for you.

What you could do is this. Next expansion, make TBN directly give you a free Edge/Flood without granting Dark Arts. Have Edge and Flood instead grant you a Dark Arts stack. Introduce in two higher potency weaponskills that form a second combo which only can be accessed when Dark Arts or Delirium is active. That leaves you one action for a finisher of your choice to round everything off. Now you have more unique buttons to press. But the underlying issue isn't Delirium itself. It's that the job itself has only 3-4 unique GCDs to work with most of the time. That's why the design problem needs to be a specific one, or else you address the wrong issue.

Delirium himself is just part of the problem not the only one of course, Delirium and basically the Blackblood system problem is just a independent copypasted Inner release and rage system of WAR that is complety disconected fromt he rest of the skill just like everything on the job, basically the same with minimal differences like the crit stuff and WAR having a finished and DRK just having Living shadow, the spam is a issue for me i personally hate and yeah PLD is worse but PLD is for PLD mains and i never will try to main it so i never going to ask for changes about the job.

The thing is i don't have any problem if DRK have just a few GCD if the gameplay work in tandem with a extensive oGCD usage like SB more or less and HW something that current DRK doesnt, his 45s of soul eater downtime is painfully awful bcs of that, thats why my feedback consist in mostly spread the oGCD and more specific the MP oGCD usage since you can switch Flood and Edge any time with TBN and get refund the cost making his mitigation being smooth anytime but i agree DRK can get more GCD and turning Shadowbringer into a GCD could help now since is just fluf just like Abyssal drain/Carve and spit, plunge and Salted earth + salt and darkness offering nothing to the gameplay but brainless damage.

In resume i want the blackblood system and Delirium reworked bcs is basically WAR stuff, it works? yeah it works but that doesn't mean its fine have the exactly the same thing on both jobs, DRK being a downgraded WAR complains come mostly for that mechanic so is a problem that affects his identity. I want more GCD? yeah sure i want but at the same time i consider Shadowbringer being a waste mechanically as an oGCD when could be that extra GCD we need and not have to wait 2 more years for a new combo or just that independent GCD we want, and i want more oGCD usage across the rotation so the downtime is not awfully empty specially MP related oGCD bcs can allow being switched easily with TBN anytime and add Darkside upkeep gameplay to make it more interesting and not monotonous like now.
The burst of the job can be with Living shadow offering someting more that just being a DOT +Carve,Abysal, Plunge and Salted alone, and stop having hollow traits like unmend trait and 2 traits for Living shadow, i want a job that is not a copy pasted WAR that consist in just 1 combo + inner release and a mountain of fluff oGCD usage for a small fraction of the 60s loop and i firmly belive they can archive that easily if they just care to put some effort and time on DRK desing with what they have now.

[Colt47]

(snip for space)

This sounds more like a conversation about the energy gauge than delirium, since delirium is just a component of the energy system. If they were to do away with delirium, it would likewise mean doing away with the energy gauge and going fully back into MP with cooldowns, which is what most people would probably want with dark knight as we don't have a tank like that. Gunbreaker builds strict charges and uses those to perform attacks in a pattern, where Dark Knight without Delirium is more like a dragoon that cycles between the main combo and OGCDs. I'd actually introduce Obilation earlier in their progression and have TBN come later, since TBN is not going to be as useful as another mitigation during the leveling experience.

Personally, I wouldn't even care if we lost quietus, blood spiller, and delirium since they are just there to act as a damage boost on the main skills. They could easily be replaced with a skill that makes your main combo grant a free flood of shadow on each hit, so you'd use it and then start using flood of shadow between each GCD.

[Shurrikhan]

If they were to do away with delirium, it would likewise mean doing away with the energy gauge and going fully back into MP with cooldowns, which is what most people would probably want with dark knight as we don't have a tank like that. Gunbreaker builds strict charges and uses those to perform attacks in a pattern, where Dark Knight without Delirium is more like a dragoon that cycles between the main combo and OGCDs.

The difference between the two, until you have a spenders not just of 3000 MP cost, is only GNB's system holds 3 charges while DRK's holds 3.33 and DRK enters the instance with full charge while GNB enters at no charge.

The difference between single-cost gauge/MP spending and cartridge spending is only that: whether there's a starting penalty (largely offset by their generative CDs anyways) and aesthetic.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

I have mixed feelings about Dark Mind and Dark Missionary. I think Dark Missionary and Heart of Light should be on a shorter recast than Shake and Veil, given that they're less powerful effects on top of being conditional to damage type. This is especially true after the buffs to both Shake and Veil this expansion which add in additional healing effects. I also feel that HoL/Missionary should have something to differentiate them from each other, even if its minor. I'd less inclined to do anything with Dark Mind, especially if the above issues are addressed. I understand that it's situational, but I wouldn't trade it for the likes of Camo, for example.

While I agree HoL/Missionary could have very minor extra effects to give them a bit of flavor, Shake & veil only got those healing buffs because of how weak & useless they were compared to HoL/Missionary when it came to multi-hit attacks, where across their entirety, the multi-hit attacks would deal well over 200-400% of the party's total max HP and DM/HoL were seeing crazy returns on their effective mitigation value and shields were basically useless in terms of effective HP saved, but also didn't effect how the healers planned for those moments. Tumult spam, Ahk Morn -> morn Afah spams, Quietus -> Shockwave pulsar spam, J-wave & Splash -> Cascade spam are just but some of the many examples that shields fell flat on their face.

This is doubly so when unless you were sinking a ton of mit into feeding it, shake was barely shielding more than DM/HoL would mitigate on any given single hit, given that most raidwides are designed to do around 90-100%+ of a player's max HP, meaning DM/HoL were effective shields of 5-10% of a person's max HP (factoring diminishing returns on other % mitigators) and shake at base is only 15%. DM/HoL also scale much better against incoming damage than shield do. Terminal Relativity for example, did somewhere around 200k damage before mits (needed 3x 10% mits + shields, and even then it'd still wipe out 80-90% of your HP bar) making DM/HoL stronger than Shake on that single hit before even factoring in the quietus/pulsars after it.

Magic only is pretty much irrelevant as well, since 95% of damage you'd want to mitigate with them is magic. Them being omni damage wouldn't change much beyond making them useful dungeon pull cooldowns and have basically zero effect on their usefulness in raids. (Which I think is the reason they're magic only - prevents DRK/GNB from having even more personal mit for dungeons than PLD while not interfering with their usefulness in raids. WAR is just an oddball since they benefit from shake itself, but WAR also has a lot of 'interesting' design decisions regarding dungeons)

The healing buff was just to shore them up so they aren't completely dead in the water on multi-hit attacks, though DM/HoL still reign supreme on those. The buffs just made is to the party mits are okay at one thing and amazing at the other:
-Shields: Amazing at single hits, okay at multi-hits. Niche use: Actually effect physical...whenever there's actually physical damage in a raid that isn't just on the tanks.
-DM/HoL: Okay at single hits, Amazing at multi-hits. Niche use: Also stronger than shields against attacks like Terminal Relativity where damage is so extremely high that 10% is blocking more damage than shake/veil is.

Giving DM/HoL a shorter recast would actually make them insanely busted in the current raid tier...and even more busted in previous ultimates.

[Shurrikhan]

....

There's no single/multi-hit distinction, only total damage. For a HoL/Missionary to mitigate as much as a SiO, the party would have to take damage equal to 150% of their HP and a further 400 cure potency's worth of HP.

[Lyth]

Shake & veil only got those healing buffs because of how weak & useless they were compared to HoL/Missionary when it came to multi-hit attacks

The differentiation between % damage reduction (%DR) and flat damage reduction (shields) is the total amount of incoming damage. As the total damage scales up, so does the amount mitigated by %DR, while flat damage reduction remains constant. There will always be some break even point where %DR overtakes flat DR. Whether the damage comes in the form of a single big hit or multiple hits over the duration of the cooldown doesn't matter mathematically because of the distributive law. It's the total damage summed over the duration of the cooldown.

The point as Shurrikhan has already mentioned is that SiO is a very beefy shield to start with, so that break even point is pretty high to begin with. I honestly can't say that I've heard anyone refer to Shake it Off as being weak and useless outside of its very original implementation. It's probably one of the most powerful tank abilities in the game.

While a lot of tankbuster damage and most raidwide damage tends to be magical, it seems like a strange design decision. You're just arbitrarily removing defensives from one tank if the fight isn't designed in a particular way. If it's not relevant to fight design, then there's no issue with removing the damage type restriction. I don't really think that dungeon balance factors into this, nor should it. It's just an archaic holdover from Heavensward era design.