Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[Cleretic]

The idea that she never actually had to live in the world she created is a little ehh.


So Venat and company kill themselves forever and it's nirvana, but the Plenty kill themselves forever and it's a bad thing?

I'm not saying it's actually either/or, but I do think there was an effort in the story to suggest that existence is superior to nonexistence. Not the most Buddhist thing exactly, but the idea is there.

She literally lived to watch and guide the world she created, she didn't just ollie out of everything. She had the hardest road of all; she didn't just see her world end, she had to go on knowing it could never come back, and that the world she did make would be filled with suffering that she'd ascribe to herself.

And there's no evidence Ra-la killed souls so much as just terminated the lives they were living, which they no longer wanted to do. So yeah, Venat's death is different from the Plenty's both there and in intent; the Plenty essentially committed empty suicide, Venat and company sacrificed their life for the sake of others. Selfish versus selfless.

And yes, the game generally does consider existence to be preferable to nonexistence, which is why it initially sits weird that Emet gets to keep going but Venat doesn't. The big thing splitting Endwalker's cycle of rebirth from Buddhism's belief is ultimately that Endwalker's is just rebirth, while Buddhism includes the beliefs of karma and liberation from mortal 'poisons' that sort of govern your place and ultimate liberation from the cycle.

In Buddhist beliefs, you could see Venat's cessation as reaching that goal of nirvana, while Emet-Selch still has growing to do. But those Buddhist notions don't exist in this text, and the game generally looks at it as 'continuing to exist is good and you should generally do that if possible', so suddenly it flips; Venat faces the ultimate punishment of total death for what she did, while Emet-Selch, positioned as essentially her moral mirror, gets to keep going.

[Theodric]

This means Venat was responsible for the Ascians and the Rejoinings, alongside the tragedy of the 13th Shard. The Ascians were able to reconstitute themselves as their core members were Unsundered. If they all were Sundered, they wouldn't have been able to pull off the Rejoinings. Much less even remember if there was a unsundered world. If Venat retained her memories of the WoL, then she willingly pick the path that would result in all the tragedies of the Umbra Calamities.

It's amusing, if nothing else. Unintentionally so.

I simply can't help but note that some around these parts were insisting that the Sundering did not qualify as an act of genocide but that the Rejoinings very much did.

[Veloran]

She literally lived to watch and guide the world she created, she didn't just ollie out of everything.

It's a little different watching from the outside versus actually living it herself.

And there's no evidence Ra-la killed souls so much as just terminated the lives they were living,

In that case what's even the problem? It's just a willing total societal reset.

In Buddhist beliefs, you could see Venat's cessation as reaching that goal of nirvana, while Emet-Selch still has growing to do. But those Buddhist notions don't exist in this text, and the game generally looks at it as 'continuing to exist is good and you should generally do that if possible', so suddenly it flips; Venat faces the ultimate punishment of total death for what she did, while Emet-Selch, positioned as essentially her moral mirror, gets to keep going.

Related to the above, you could say it's so she could never live in the world she made. A tragedy, depending on your perspective.

[LystAP]

It's amusing, if nothing else. Unintentionally so.

I simply can't help but note that some around these parts were insisting that the Sundering did not qualify as an act of genocide but that the Rejoinings very much did.

Venat needed to get both achievements.

It's a little different watching from the outside versus actually living it herself.

Venat lived detached from the world in the star's core, unlike Emet who lived life after life. Emet at times seem to reconsider his path, but Venat never seemed to have done so at all. It never felt like she considered any alternative, but to perpetuate the cycle of suffering for 12,000 years. If she allowed Emet and the other Unsundered to get through her Sundering, she did so with the knowledge of what they were going to do. What they planned to do. While she was in opposition to them, she was also their accomplice in allowing the Rejoinings to happen. I wonder if she had helped the Ascians figure out how to rejoin the worlds, just so she can create the circumstances that led to the WoL meeting her in Endwalker.

[Cleretic]

I'm not going to dignify the unironic 'Ra-la was right' with a response, but I think we all have to recognize that someone did pull an unironic 'Ra-la was right'.

Venat lived detached from the world in the star's core, unlike Emet who lived life after life. Emet at times seem to reconsider his path, but Venat never seemed to have done so at all. It never felt like she considered any alternative, but to perpetuate the cycle of suffering for 12,000 years. If she allowed Emet and the other Unsundered to get through her Sundering, she did so with the knowledge of what they were going to do. What they planned to do. While she was in opposition to them, she was also their accomplice in allowing the Rejoinings to happen. I wonder if she had helped the Ascians figure out how to rejoin the worlds, just so she can create the circumstances that led to the WoL meeting her in Endwalker.

Remember that she directly stated that she did try to stop things--and in fact we confirmably saw her stop at least one Calamity (plausibly two, with the Zodiac Braves against Ultima) with great difficulty and contrived circumstances, so we can reason that doing so is really hard. She knew this plan was needed, but did her best to make it as painless as possible; it's just that she had very little ability to do so compared to the Ascians' ability to make it worse.

[KageTokage]

It really does not sit well with me that the unsundered were allowed to escape in spite of foreknowledge that they'd both potentially jeopardize the plan and cause the death of multiple worlds. That detail just makes Venat look all the worse, even if it was necessary to preserve the timeline.

It kind of loops back to my initial feelings that the single biggest mistake they made with Endwalker and the story arc overall was adding the element of time travel/predestination into the mix again, but on a far greater scale then what happened in Shadowbringers. It comes across to me as a rather short-sighted decision done mostly to give Emet Selch, Hythlodaeus, and other Ancients time in the spotlight but at the expense of the story's integrity.

[Veloran]

Remember that she directly stated that she did try to stop things--and in fact we confirmably saw her stop at least one Calamity (plausibly two, with the Zodiac Braves against Ultima) with great difficulty and contrived circumstances, so we can reason that doing so is really hard. She knew this plan was needed, but did her best to make it as painless as possible; it's just that she had very little ability to do so compared to the Ascians' ability to make it worse.

The best way to stop the Ascians from destroying seven worlds would be to not create them to begin with.

[Lurina]

The best way to stop the Ascians from destroying seven worlds would be to not create them to begin with.

Agreed. Now that we know Hydaelyn spared Emet to allow the time loop to be caused, there's not really any conclusion to be drawn other then that she wanted him to do all the stuff he did. Otherwise, it wouldn't be.

[Starkbeaumont]

- Venat left Emet, and ambiguously the other Unsundered, alive on purpose because of their utility in bringing about her plans.

even if we assume she only wanted Emet to survive (why not Azem?!), she basically made him go rogue and commit genocide to her "children". if that wasn't her plan she should have given him some notes maybe...

- The player races are descended from Sundered Ancients. Non-Hyur developed their inhuman traits over time to compensate for deficiencies created by their essence being broken unevenly and trying to recover - for example, Miqo'te grew bigger ears because of loss of hearing.

I call BS on that one. the races of the First look exactly the same as on the Source. yet almost all other living things are different.

[KageTokage]

The reflections started off identical and we have no idea exactly how long it took for the sundered Ancients to transform into the present-day races.

The different creatures present on the First could also still reasonably be present on the Source as well, but simply ended up in different places as result of human trafficking, natural disasters, etc.

Regardless, I do hope they do a proper deep dive into the earliest parts of the world's post-sundering history at some point.