Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[Cleretic]

Yoshida considers Venat a grey character, just as flawed and arrogant as the Unsundered, and she's not only dead now, but super dead, not even her soul is left to eventually reincarnate. What more do you folks want?

That part honestly kinda sits weirdly with me. I know it's not really a morality thing, it's just how this reality works and nothing is different depending on if someone was good or bad in life, but Emet-Selch getting to see reincarnation and cleansing while Venat dies a turbodeath nothing else in this reality has ever seen is... that feels wrong.

Although with Endwalker being very Buddhism in teaching, it's worth noting that in a weird way, this is effectively Venat reaching nirvana. And, like the others who sacrificed themselves to make Hydaelyn, she did so willingly.

[Veloran]

Yoshida considers Venat a grey character, just as flawed and arrogant as the Unsundered, and she's not only dead now, but super dead, not even her soul is left to eventually reincarnate. What more do you folks want?

The idea that she never actually had to live in the world she created is a little ehh.

Although with Endwalker being very Buddhism in teaching, it's worth noting that in a weird way, this is effectively Venat reaching nirvana. And, like the others who sacrificed themselves to make Hydaelyn, she did so willingly.

So Venat and company kill themselves forever and it's nirvana, but the Plenty kill themselves forever and it's a bad thing?

I'm not saying it's actually either/or, but I do think there was an effort in the story to suggest that existence is superior to nonexistence. Not the most Buddhist thing exactly, but the idea is there.

[Cleretic]

The idea that she never actually had to live in the world she created is a little ehh.


So Venat and company kill themselves forever and it's nirvana, but the Plenty kill themselves forever and it's a bad thing?

I'm not saying it's actually either/or, but I do think there was an effort in the story to suggest that existence is superior to nonexistence. Not the most Buddhist thing exactly, but the idea is there.

She literally lived to watch and guide the world she created, she didn't just ollie out of everything. She had the hardest road of all; she didn't just see her world end, she had to go on knowing it could never come back, and that the world she did make would be filled with suffering that she'd ascribe to herself.

And there's no evidence Ra-la killed souls so much as just terminated the lives they were living, which they no longer wanted to do. So yeah, Venat's death is different from the Plenty's both there and in intent; the Plenty essentially committed empty suicide, Venat and company sacrificed their life for the sake of others. Selfish versus selfless.

And yes, the game generally does consider existence to be preferable to nonexistence, which is why it initially sits weird that Emet gets to keep going but Venat doesn't. The big thing splitting Endwalker's cycle of rebirth from Buddhism's belief is ultimately that Endwalker's is just rebirth, while Buddhism includes the beliefs of karma and liberation from mortal 'poisons' that sort of govern your place and ultimate liberation from the cycle.

In Buddhist beliefs, you could see Venat's cessation as reaching that goal of nirvana, while Emet-Selch still has growing to do. But those Buddhist notions don't exist in this text, and the game generally looks at it as 'continuing to exist is good and you should generally do that if possible', so suddenly it flips; Venat faces the ultimate punishment of total death for what she did, while Emet-Selch, positioned as essentially her moral mirror, gets to keep going.

[Veloran]

She literally lived to watch and guide the world she created, she didn't just ollie out of everything.

It's a little different watching from the outside versus actually living it herself.

And there's no evidence Ra-la killed souls so much as just terminated the lives they were living,

In that case what's even the problem? It's just a willing total societal reset.

In Buddhist beliefs, you could see Venat's cessation as reaching that goal of nirvana, while Emet-Selch still has growing to do. But those Buddhist notions don't exist in this text, and the game generally looks at it as 'continuing to exist is good and you should generally do that if possible', so suddenly it flips; Venat faces the ultimate punishment of total death for what she did, while Emet-Selch, positioned as essentially her moral mirror, gets to keep going.

Related to the above, you could say it's so she could never live in the world she made. A tragedy, depending on your perspective.

[LystAP]

It's amusing, if nothing else. Unintentionally so.

I simply can't help but note that some around these parts were insisting that the Sundering did not qualify as an act of genocide but that the Rejoinings very much did.

Venat needed to get both achievements.

It's a little different watching from the outside versus actually living it herself.

Venat lived detached from the world in the star's core, unlike Emet who lived life after life. Emet at times seem to reconsider his path, but Venat never seemed to have done so at all. It never felt like she considered any alternative, but to perpetuate the cycle of suffering for 12,000 years. If she allowed Emet and the other Unsundered to get through her Sundering, she did so with the knowledge of what they were going to do. What they planned to do. While she was in opposition to them, she was also their accomplice in allowing the Rejoinings to happen. I wonder if she had helped the Ascians figure out how to rejoin the worlds, just so she can create the circumstances that led to the WoL meeting her in Endwalker.

[Cleretic]

I'm not going to dignify the unironic 'Ra-la was right' with a response, but I think we all have to recognize that someone did pull an unironic 'Ra-la was right'.

Venat lived detached from the world in the star's core, unlike Emet who lived life after life. Emet at times seem to reconsider his path, but Venat never seemed to have done so at all. It never felt like she considered any alternative, but to perpetuate the cycle of suffering for 12,000 years. If she allowed Emet and the other Unsundered to get through her Sundering, she did so with the knowledge of what they were going to do. What they planned to do. While she was in opposition to them, she was also their accomplice in allowing the Rejoinings to happen. I wonder if she had helped the Ascians figure out how to rejoin the worlds, just so she can create the circumstances that led to the WoL meeting her in Endwalker.

Remember that she directly stated that she did try to stop things--and in fact we confirmably saw her stop at least one Calamity (plausibly two, with the Zodiac Braves against Ultima) with great difficulty and contrived circumstances, so we can reason that doing so is really hard. She knew this plan was needed, but did her best to make it as painless as possible; it's just that she had very little ability to do so compared to the Ascians' ability to make it worse.

[Veloran]

Remember that she directly stated that she did try to stop things--and in fact we confirmably saw her stop at least one Calamity (plausibly two, with the Zodiac Braves against Ultima) with great difficulty and contrived circumstances, so we can reason that doing so is really hard. She knew this plan was needed, but did her best to make it as painless as possible; it's just that she had very little ability to do so compared to the Ascians' ability to make it worse.

The best way to stop the Ascians from destroying seven worlds would be to not create them to begin with.

[KizuyaKatogami]

She literally lived to watch and guide the world she created, she didn't just ollie out of everything. She had the hardest road of all; she didn't just see her world end, she had to go on knowing it could never come back, and that the world she did make would be filled with suffering that she'd ascribe to herself.

And there's no evidence Ra-la killed souls so much as just terminated the lives they were living, which they no longer wanted to do. So yeah, Venat's death is different from the Plenty's both there and in intent; the Plenty essentially committed empty suicide, Venat and company sacrificed their life for the sake of others. Selfish versus selfless.

And yes, the game generally does consider existence to be preferable to nonexistence, which is why it initially sits weird that Emet gets to keep going but Venat doesn't. The big thing splitting Endwalker's cycle of rebirth from Buddhism's belief is ultimately that Endwalker's is just rebirth, while Buddhism includes the beliefs of karma and liberation from mortal 'poisons' that sort of govern your place and ultimate liberation from the cycle.

In Buddhist beliefs, you could see Venat's cessation as reaching that goal of nirvana, while Emet-Selch still has growing to do. But those Buddhist notions don't exist in this text, and the game generally looks at it as 'continuing to exist is good and you should generally do that if possible', so suddenly it flips; Venat faces the ultimate punishment of total death for what she did, while Emet-Selch, positioned as essentially her moral mirror, gets to keep going.

I’d say the hardest road of all goes to Elidibus personally. Having to watch his own world and people shattered apart while trying to save them, only to spend 12000 years trying to piece it back together, only to be betrayed by another one of his own people, sealed into a tower with his sorrowful memories of his dead friends and family, and then forced to sacrifice himself and extinguish his soul completely….and then not even be mentioned or regarded once after for his deeds.

(As Emet-Selch admitted, the Ascians' methods wouldn't have gotten them that far.)

Small correction, the french version highlights that when he says this, he's meaning getting to Ultima Thule. Not anything else.

[MikkoAkure]

I’d say the hardest road of all goes to Elidibus personally. Having to watch his own world and people shattered apart while trying to save them, only to spend 12000 years trying to piece it back together, only to be betrayed by another one of his own people, sealed into a tower with his sorrowful memories of his dead friends and family, and then forced to sacrifice himself and extinguish his soul completely….and then not even be mentioned or regarded once after for his deeds.

Elidibus isn't forced to do anything. He sends us back of his own volition as his Ancient self and not his Ascian self. Where are you getting that he was forced?

"Betrayed by another of his own people" is equally a highly exaggerated way to describe the situation, considering when his soul was rent and he returned to his personality before he summoned Zodiark, he helped us just as Emet-Selch had when Emet was no longer an Ascian.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Elidibus isn't forced to do anything. He sends us back of his own volition as his Ancient self and not his Ascian self. Where are you getting that he was forced?

Forced as in if he doesn’t the world literally ends. It’s a bit strange to me Venat gets all the credit when were it not for him we’d literally be doomed. I should remember i need to word things clearly for some.