Condensing Bard with Morphing Buttons

[Xiaoki]

It doesn't require any effort but... you want it to be in one button so that you...? What? If it doesn't require effort, it sounds like it's already easy enough. You can't play both sides here.

Play both sides? What do you mean by that? I never said anything about wanting both ways. Seems like you're trying to fabricate a Strawman here.

If they want Refulgent Arrow to be a different button then they should make it distinct from Burst Shot. As it is, Refulgent Arrow is just a higher damage version of Burst Shot. So, why is it a separate button? Instead of Burst Shot becoming Refulgent Arrow they could make it that Burst Shot has a random chance to do more damage, as that would be the exact same thing.

How about Refulgent Arrow has a 15 second cooldown and it extends the duration of your DoT effects by 3 seconds (or something related to your DoTs) and Burst Shot as a chance to reset the cooldown. In that case have it be a different button because that would be better than what we have now.

[LeonKeyh]

Play both sides? What do you mean by that? I never said anything about wanting both ways. Seems like you're trying to fabricate a Strawman here.

If they want Refulgent Arrow to be a different button then they should make it distinct from Burst Shot. As it is, Refulgent Arrow is just a higher damage version of Burst Shot. So, why is it a separate button? Instead of Burst Shot becoming Refulgent Arrow they could make it that Burst Shot has a random chance to do more damage, as that would be the exact same thing.

How about Refulgent Arrow has a 15 second cooldown and it extends the duration of your DoT effects by 3 seconds (or something related to your DoTs) and Burst Shot as a chance to reset the cooldown. In that case have it be a different button because that would be better than what we have now.

Throwing around "straw man" as your singular defense isn't really defending your point.

Comment One: I like actual depth (that which gives engagement according to criteria X, Y, and Z).
Comment Two: This is merely bloat (uses up space otherwise available for complexity or QoL/responsiveness and does not give engagement according to criteria X, Y, and Z).

That's not exactly "playing both sides". You can be pro-depth and anti-bloat (even if there's a degree of --well, artificial-- "complexity" involved in bloat).

That's somewhat fair, but where's the line? At what point is something "bloat" and at what point isn't it? Distinct characteristics? Are you saying that every "just damage" button should be a single button then? Single button combos? Dancer having 2 buttons instead of 4 for their combo with procs replacing it? Where is the line there? MCH having a single button combo which also turns into Air Anchor/Drill whenever those abilities are up?

I think that people _greatly_ underestimate the "engagement" just from having different buttons to press. Ask healers how 1 button DPS spam is.

[Shurrikhan]

I think that people _greatly_ underestimate the "engagement" just from having different buttons to press. Ask healers how 1 button DPS spam is.

They're not just hitting 1 button, though. They're hitting only 1 action. Compare that to a 3- or 4-step PvP combo, for instance, which is still 1 button but far from a single action.

At what point is something "bloat" and at what point isn't it? Distinct characteristics?

Yes. Precisely that. What characteristics something must have or how we weigh each will vary with underlying warrants that are by no means universally agreed upon, but being "bloat" IS a matter of having too few or shallow of 'good things' for the amount of cost they put on the system (often thereby pushing out options for better things).

Take the Refulgent Arrow example, for instance. At present its complexity is essentially just to, per .5s queuing period, roll your finger from the Refulgent button to your Burst Shot button; doing that, if you have a Refulgent able to go, it is used, and if you don't, Burst Shot is used instead. Combining them into a single key therefore costs no thought --only a tiny, quickly passive habit for one's thumb or nearest finger-- but makes room for either (A) greater depth or (B) for less used but thoughtful actions to be buffed, rather than trimmed.

Now, you can also go the other route by actually making it viable to hold a Refulgent Arrow, such as by giving it stacks. Voila! Refulgent truly becomes a separate fixture, a separate decision than just "keep doing filler ST damage", actually worth a second button.

But having a non-decision that does not even require the most passive of tracking --let alone "engagement" no matter how pedantic a definition one tries to pass despite its typical use in this domain-- take up space otherwise be usable for actual depth is not complexity. It's bloat.

[Rika007]

snip

I don't think any one disagrees with you in the idea that yes if we were to get those new skills with more actual complexity then having a morph button for Burst into Refulgent would be fantastic and a great way to reduce bloat. The issue is that's a hypothetical that would only occur down the line in an expansion where the dev team will devote the time to making large rotational changes. As for the here and now, it would be one of my last choices of reducing bloat, as even if it's level of complexity is reaching slightly up to my triangle button instead of pressing my X button again, I will take that if nothing else is changing.

There are just better targets to address the here and now button bloat of Bard. Useless role actions being condensed into one ability (All the Graze abilities) or just axed entirely (why does Peloton still exist). Or actual job actions like Warden's Paen (if it ain't getting reworked then the dang thing needs to be removed). Personally I would rather see the songs be condensed to a morphing button, as then I wouldn't have to be as terrified of a bad fat finger screwing my rotation in a way that literally can't be recovered from as much as I currently am.

[Iscah]

(why does Peloton still exist)

Because it makes you go faster?

Especially valuable in the field where we still can't sprint for more than 20 seconds in a minute.

There is absolutely no reason to ask for its removal. It isn't used in battle so it doesn't change anything. Just don't use it if you don't appreciate it.

[Shurrikhan]

Because it makes you go faster?

Especially valuable in the field where we still can't sprint for more than 20 seconds in a minute.

There is absolutely no reason to ask for its removal. It isn't used in battle so it doesn't change anything. Just don't use it if you don't appreciate it.

Though, did Rika ask to remove Ranged jobs' ability to grant movement speed, specifically?

The button could as easily be handled by just having a passive movement speed aura when outside of combat. (Technically, it'd be better in some circumstances, as auras don't count as an action and therefore don't have that small bit of enmity on application and therefore wouldn't force the Bard into combat the moment they Peloton a player already in combat, stopping the Bard from using or further granting that buff.)

Or, to put it another way: Does Peloton need a distinct button?

If you prefer hitting that key and seeing the green pulse animation over having other skills within handier reach, then probably "yes". Otherwise, probably "no".

:: Granted, I'd still offer that as much as I like having a physical ranged in my party, I see no reason to limit that capacity to that one role -- which can be reframed, conversely, as seeing no reason to give that role that capacity. I'll take it or leave it, but the days of physical ranged being supports are long behind us, so there's little thematic sense to it unless we wish to push them back towards that archetype.

[Iscah]

Though, did Rika ask to remove Ranged jobs' ability to grant movement speed, specifically?

It's what Peleton does. They said to get rid of Peleton. How else am I supposed to interpret that sentence?