Condensing Bard with Morphing Buttons

[Shurrikhan]

Um… Iron Jaws was VERY important in Stormblood. IJ optimization was very important for snapshotting critical hit buffs and manipulating your Repertoire… IJ optimization basically died in ShB, but it is still relevant for snapshotting during buff windows for buffed DoTs. Just not nearly as critical to BRD optimization as it was in SB.

And it wouldn't have been worth snapshotting DoTs if it took 2 GCDs to do so?

I'm asking what, in terms of gameplay, it added to Bard after DoT durations were so greatly increased (and relative potency per tick value over DoT-less GCDs decreased in kind)?

Refulgent Arrow was certainly important, too. That didn't make it add anything, gameplay-wise, over HW Straight Shot (and Barrage being usable on the then-weaponskill Empyreal Arrow), though.

Capacity alone doesn't make for a good addition to a kit, especially if it directly results in more spam when that spam was already overly prevalent, as IJ has done since StB.

[HyoMinPark]

And it wouldn't have been worth snapshotting DoTs if it took 2 GCDs to do so?

I'm asking what, in terms of gameplay, it added to Bard after DoT durations were so greatly increased (and relative potency per tick value over DoT-less GCDs decreased in kind)?

Adding in IJ removed the need to manually reapply both DoTs and gave BRDs an additional Heavy Shot cast, which was a net gain.

In terms of gameplay, SB BRD Repertoire played off of DoT manipulation to increase the chance of procs, therefore increasing damage. With 1 critical hit buff, you snapshot your DoTs once. With 2+, twice: once at the beginning of the buffs and once at the end. While most of these snapshots were already predetermined in a fight based on your buff timings, any time an AST gave a BRD a Spear, that was also a chance to snapshot. It relied on paying attention to party buffs. I found it quite meaningful, and the direction they’ve gone in removing Repertoire from DoT tick reliance has only lessened the value of the skill (as well as the potency increase in Burst Shot versus old Heavy Shot).

It is still, however, used to snapshot raid buffs. Even with the 45 second duration that the DoTs have now. And it still nets BRD a cast of Burst Shot versus doing Stormbite > Caustic Bite. Burst Shot is more potent, hence it is obviously the better GCD choice.

Refulgent Arrow was certainly important, too. That didn't make it add anything, gameplay-wise, over HW Straight Shot (and Barrage being usable on the then-weaponskill Empyreal Arrow), though.

Refulgent Arrow did not serve the same purpose as Straight Shot. Old Straight Shot was a self-critical hit buff. It wasn’t something you spammed, but a buff you maintained. Refulgent doesn’t really add much now because they removed old SS entirely, and they made it proc on so many skills that sometimes you actively lose a usage out of it and there isn’t much you can do about it.

Barrage + Refulgent was a DPS gain over Barrage + EA. It was RNG, yeah, but it was still a gain. If anything, it added satisfaction in the difference between a stellar opener, and a less-than stellar one due to having to take Barrage+EA over Barrage+Refulgent.

Capacity alone doesn't make for a good addition to a kit, especially if it directly results in more spam when that spam was already overly prevalent, as IJ has done since StB.

IJ wasn’t really spammed in Stormblood. You had set intervals that you used it, and that was that. Heavy Shot was still, by far, the most spammed skill you used. IJ is used even less frequently now. So I really fail to see how much “spamming” you’re actually doing with it.

[Shurrikhan]

Adding in IJ removed the need to manually reapply both DoTs and gave BRDs an additional Heavy Shot cast, which was a net gain.

To potency per minute, yes, of course. But to gameplay? Is spending only 1 in 18 GCDs, down from 1 in 9, on anything other than (<your filler-proc> over <your filler itself>) a gameplay improvement?

It is still, however, used to snapshot raid buffs. Even with the 45 second duration that the DoTs have now.

Yes, but so would those DoTs be snapshotted, just the same, without IJ. It would just take 2 GCDs, down from 1.

And it still nets BRD a cast of Burst Shot versus doing Stormbite > Caustic Bite. Burst Shot is more potent, hence it is obviously the better GCD choice.

...At no point have I said that using Iron Jaws is inferior to reusing the DoTs separately, merely that so long as you would have (re)applied your DoTs in all the same situations (as you would have in single-target combat since Stormblood) without IJ as you would with IJ, then IJ has generated no unique gameplay value.

It is essentially a Caustic Bite trait that causes Stormbite also to be applied, except that it be used at the start of combat, and therefore can't reduce the time required for your DoTs to pay off, and takes up an extra button.

For that reason, Iron Jaws is not, in present contexts, a well-designed ability. It is an ability that exists to increase your filler action from 88.8% (16 of 18) of your GCD casts to 94.4% (17 of 18), but then charges you an extra button for the pleasure of spamming your filler more. It's an ability that actually give more diversity in button-flow, and slightly greater rotational complexity, for having been removed.

:: To be clear, I'm not even advocating its removal here, only pointing out that protecting every action/button at all costs, regardless of their actual impact on rotation, is not a great idea.

IJ wasn’t really spammed in Stormblood.

I never said IJ was spammed. I said IJ led to even less time being spent on anything but your spam (Refulgent>Burst). Which it has.

Heavy Shot spam "was already overly prevalent". Iron Jaws then "resulted in more spam" despite that.

In HW, it at least created certain new thresholds for DoT's (re)application, which gave some positives to offset that negative. It has not, however, done so since.

[HyoMinPark]

To potency per minute, yes, of course. But to gameplay? Is spending only 1 in 18 GCDs, down from 1 in 9, on anything other than (<your filler-proc> over <your filler itself>) a gameplay improvement?

Yes, I do believe it was a gameplay improvement. It certainly allowed for a kind of optimization that has slowly been stripped from the job. While IJ optimization is still there, it’s not as meaningful anymore. But I do believe that it was a gameplay improvement when implemented in HW, and that gameplay was later expanded up in SB—and IJ was made to be even more meaningful then.

I never said IJ was spammed. I said it led to even less time being spent on anything but your spam. Which it has.

Then I misunderstood what you wrote—but it also was not clear that the above was what you were even saying, either.

For filler spam, there is no other recourse but to basically add another button other than Burst Shot to BRD. Readding Straight Shot could alleviate this, since you would have to maintain it, and I would argue for having the self-buff be the original 20 seconds versus the 30 second version that the devs adjusted in SB. But removing IJ entirely and returning to manual DoT refresh would not really do much in terms of breaking up the filler monotony that you seem to be so fixated on. Giving BRD a 1-2 would just be copying DNC, and I’d rather not have that either.

If you remove IJ and add back manual DoT refresh to BRD as it is now, next you’ll have to address the issue of both DoTs allowing for RA procs on top of Burst Shot adding in a proc chance. If both your DoTs proc RA, you will have to lose a use of it. I feel like this is less of an issue with IJ despite it also proc’ing RA, since now we’ve reduced the number of skills that force proc a weaponskill that does not have a way to store procs from 3 to 2.



Personally, I don’t see the need for 45-second DoTs. I think they were fine as 30 second DoTs. It’s not a change I’m happy with, but I honestly haven’t been pleased with BRD since the ShB changes. Reverting back to 30-second DoTs is another option worth considering in my opinion—I’m not sure why the duration was upped to 45-second or what purposed this served, other than the developers wanting DoTs to be the same duration as songs—but even they aren’t perfectly 45 seconds.



But this is turning into a BRD adjustment thread—and the conversation is getting derailed. My original assertions about the actual thread topic still stand: BRD doesn’t have button bloat, and the amount of things you could condense are very few without changing aspects of how the job functions (e.g., making Mage’s change into Bloodletter while active—which then locks the ability out of the other two songs). The skills that could be removed are basically skills that you can get away with not even having on your bar now.

[Shurrikhan]

But this is turning into a BRD adjustment thread—and the conversation is getting derailed. My original assertions about the actual thread topic still stand: BRD doesn’t have button bloat, and the amount of things you could condense are very few without changing aspects of how the job functions (e.g., making Mage’s change into Bloodletter while active—which then locks the ability out of the other two songs). The skills that could be removed are basically skills that you can get away with not even having on your bar now.

I agree, so I'll just leave this final note:

I think the main thing in regard to IJ and Bard DoTs in general is to just shorten the DoT durations and perhaps offer each DoT some further utility of their own by which one might want to use them earlier (for more than just, and usually timed apart from, snapshotting purposes). Additionally, I'd like to see repertoire chances again scale with DoT counts, but that'd honestly be the far less impactful change anywhere outside of dungeons.

I think that Straight Shot / Refulgent Arrow should be bankable, as to have reason for a separate button (which, btw, already solves the issues of redundant procs that are an issue even with Iron Jaws... unless one breaks from regular/optimized DoT intervals just to apply IJ early after having just used RA as not to risk proc-waste, which one shouldn't). Perhaps even add some further interaction of interest.

But, I don't really want to see a further GCD of ramp-up, like the old Straight Shot Crit buff, added just for the sake of it, since it'd be used in nearly all circumstances and thereby provide little choice (and that little bit would not even be unique to that buff, merely a narrower form of the decision-making already done for DoTs).

If, however, we wished to retain the ability to reapply DoTs in a single GCD, there would be zero loss to anything but button-bloat to simply consolidate Iron Jaws into either DoT. (E.g., Caustic and Stormbite apply only themselves but each refresh each other, too, perhaps with a conditional added animation.)

[Silver-Strider]

The point of what you quoted was to directly contest a poster just a second ago who said that bard has a massive button bloat.

Here's the thing, I view the entire Button Bloat argument as a joke. It's an excuse to streamline classes and nothing more. As a result, literally every single job is subject to it, whether we view it as button bloat or not.

1-2-3 combos? Take the PvP route and merge them all into a single button.
Multiple DoTs? Merge them into 1 super DoT
Utility? We'll just take them from other jobs to give to new jobs. I'm honestly surprised they didn't remove Nature's Minnie so that SGE could have it exclusively for themselves but then again, it's a Healer job so SE probably couldn't be bothered to make it special since Healers are 2nd class citizens.

Regardless, button bloat isn't the problem. It's more SE's mentality of making everything so streamlined that a caveman could do it that will probably end up causing a lot of needless changes for the sake of streamlining and little to actually do with "Button Bloat".

[VentVanitas]

Whether we could or couldn't streamline BRD's buttons without sacrificing the job's integrity is one thing, but leaving such an ordeal for SE to handle is a whole other can of worms. As the poster above me aptly puts, the development team has an endless track record of taking away quite literally anything for arbitrary or even no reason at all whilst giving nothing to replace what was taken. We've seen this happen time and time again with DRK, every healer bar SGE, MCH, SMN, MNK, etc. Maybe if Bard was one of the dev's favs it would be more reasonable to believe such as how BLM or DRG have been treated.

Otherwise, leaving the task to SE is like playing Russian Roulette with five in the chamber. It could happen, but chances are they'll arbitrarily change the appeal/direction of the job by removing what people liked about it.

[HyoMinPark]

Here's the thing, I view the entire Button Bloat argument as a joke. It's an excuse to streamline classes and nothing more. As a result, literally every single job is subject to it, whether we view it as button bloat or not.

1-2-3 combos? Take the PvP route and merge them all into a single button.
Multiple DoTs? Merge them into 1 super DoT
Utility? We'll just take them from other jobs to give to new jobs. I'm honestly surprised they didn't remove Nature's Minnie so that SGE could have it exclusively for themselves but then again, it's a Healer job so SE probably couldn't be bothered to make it special since Healers are 2nd class citizens.

Regardless, button bloat isn't the problem. It's more SE's mentality of making everything so streamlined that a caveman could do it that will probably end up causing a lot of needless changes for the sake of streamlining and little to actually do with "Button Bloat".

I don’t disagree with you. And I never really was. Just my intention with my comment wasn’t an argument of whether or not “button bloat” stopped developers in terms of mutilating jobs and turning them into shadows of their former selves—it was just me responding to any poster who seems to think BRD (or any of the physical ranged) have problems with button bloat or hotbar space.

EDIT: I do believe that there are jobs out there that do suffer from button/ability bloat—and they could stand to have some meaningful trimming done (read: trimming done that does not compromise the gameplay of the job or otherwise change it entirely into another job). I just don’t think that the physical ranged role falls into this category. I am also tired of seeing my former main lose more and more of what made me fall in love with it in the first place as the expansions progress. I loved bowmage (unpopular opinion), and I loved SB BRD even more. And it has become a shadow of its former self with all these changes implemented by the developers—changes that were not made with those who main the job in mind, or even with valid complaints to improve QoL in mind; but to simply “make the job easier for the baby players”.

[Shurrikhan]

Here's the thing, I view the entire Button Bloat argument as a joke. It's an excuse to streamline classes and nothing more. As a result, literally every single job is subject to it, whether we view it as button bloat or not.

1-2-3 combos? Take the PvP route and merge them all into a single button.
Multiple DoTs? Merge them into 1 super DoT
Utility? We'll just take them from other jobs to give to new jobs. I'm honestly surprised they didn't remove Nature's Minnie so that SGE could have it exclusively for themselves but then again, it's a Healer job so SE probably couldn't be bothered to make it special since Healers are 2nd class citizens.

Regardless, button bloat isn't the problem. It's more SE's mentality of making everything so streamlined that a caveman could do it that will probably end up causing a lot of needless changes for the sake of streamlining and little to actually do with "Button Bloat".

I don't think anyone has said otherwise.

Hyomin noted that (concerns over) "button-bloat" has had no impact on Bard turning out the way it did. The two matters --button-bloat and Bard's simplification-- are irrelevant to one another.

I've likewise noted that SE does believe that there are certain button count ceilings within which they should stay but (A) that hasn't stopped them from gutting jobs that have yet to, even within new skills, reach said ceilings or (B) kept them from often enough replacing older skills with ones that are less nuanced, less vital, less frequent, and/or acquired much later.

I'd note, though, that a button count ceiling --however roughly it may be imagined or kept to-- and button bloat are two different things. Button bloat can often cause one to hit a button count ceiling while having little depth in one's kit, but that's a side-effect.

Button bloat itself is just inefficient design (essentially, a poor ratio of enjoyable gameplay value produced, including both the tactile elements of buttonflow and cognitive elements of decision-making thus made available, to buttons consumed). That button bloat usually stems from actions' ideas not being imagined into a real gameplay context, or that context being changed so greatly as to strip those actions of any unique decision-making value.

Now, is that inefficiency the bottleneck to Bard's design issues? No. Is it even a contributing factor? Not directly. But it is caused by the same disregard for consequent gameplay and greater scrutiny from either side --the gameplay loops and entertainment value (A) provided by given active actions or (B) as seemingly thematic for Bard's kit as a whole-- are good things.

[Eorzean_username]

I realize that I'm one of the last people that might be expected to advocate for keeping borderline-superfluous keys inside a Job, but I feel like Refulgent Arrow still serves a fairly distinct purpose for several reasons:

• It's not literally the same thing as Burst Shot — combos proceed very predictably, and breaking them is (hypothetically) always irrational. Procs occur unpredictably, and needing to react to them is essentially what makes it a proc instead of a combo.
• It serves as a check on Barrage usage — Weaving Barrage incorrectly will waste a proc.
• It serves as a minor check on player awareness to avoid overwriting a proc inappropriately, similar to choosing the correct combo continuation (although my opinion about the actual gameplay value provided by many of the game's current combos is a separate topic).

That said, if the proposal is to remove Bard's proc gameplay and convert it to a more standard MCH or DNC-like combo system of Burst Shot → Straight Shot → Refulgent Arrow, that's an interesting idea.

But I personally think that as long as Refulgent Arrow remains a non-guaranteed continuation from Burst Shot, that it would be unhygienic design to make it an automatic conversion, because at that point there is no reason to have a proc at all, since it requires no thinking and instead becomes frustrating (ie, "Sometimes my filler button randomly does more damage, but I have no control over it").

These are weird and subtle psychological hair-splitting considerations, and I'm not surprised that everyone views it slightly differently, but that's my take on it: the current chance-based design means that there is a psychological purpose to needing to choose a different key when the randomness occurs.

If the argument is that the "specialness" of Refulgent Arrow has been watered-down to the point that it barely feels exciting any more, I can definitely understand that perspective. But in that case, I think that it would be better to just give Bard a real combo, rather than a "fake proc" that the user essentially has no control over either way.