P1N Warrior solo kill

[Absimiliard]

We haven't even reached the "it's not a problem unless a tank easily solos normal" goalpost yet. The WAR, PLD, and GNB P1N solos weren't easy, and they took bloody forever.

At any rate, I think the crux of it is this; why not, instead of pushing for tanks to have their fun spoiled, invest all that time and spite into getting healers to a position where they get to enjoy themselves more fully? Punishing tanks for having fun is dumb.

[Aegis_Harvey]

We haven't even reached the "it's not a problem unless a tank easily solos normal" goalpost yet. The WAR, PLD, and GNB P1N solos weren't easy, and they took bloody forever.

At any rate, I think the crux of it is this; why not, instead of pushing for tanks to have their fun spoiled, invest all that time and spite into getting healers to a position where they get to enjoy themselves more fully? Punishing tanks for having fun is dumb.

Well put. We shouldn't jump to hasty conclusions that the WAR (PLD/GNB) is the problem when we see this video, when it could be something wrong with the boss, or the state of healing in general not just for tanks (sans DRK). The lazy way to "fix" this problem is to make sure every boss has an enrage or nerf tank healing down to DRK levels, but I think it's more likely the problem is the current difficulty curve for expert dungeons to PN/EX Trials to PS is way too forgiving on healers when things are going right, at least in the middle of that curve where the majority of players are going to sit. At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, I'd happily let the devs take away my broil and DoT and let my chocobo do all the damage if it meant I could spent all of my time in a party healing and buffing.

[FoxCh40s]

We haven't even reached the "it's not a problem unless a tank easily solos normal" goalpost yet. The WAR, PLD, and GNB P1N solos weren't easy, and they took bloody forever.

At any rate, I think the crux of it is this; why not, instead of pushing for tanks to have their fun spoiled, invest all that time and spite into getting healers to a position where they get to enjoy themselves more fully? Punishing tanks for having fun is dumb.

Because it's never going to happen. Healers will never be put back; they've essentially made an entire role pointless. The difficulty of it doesn't matter, the fact that it happened invalidates an entire role, and legitimately puts us in the position of babysitter.

[Absimiliard]

When were you under the impression that a healer's job wasn't babysitting? Because uh... that's been their purpose pretty much since the inception of games with different stat allocations/defined roles. No matter what changes are made in FFXIV, healers will pretty much always be the babysitters. The only difference is that three of the tank jobs no longer require a babysitter in most content.

At any rate, they balance the game pretty much entirely around endgame. I wouldn't go expecting much until tanks start soloing savage.

[Venks]

Well put. We shouldn't jump to hasty conclusions that the WAR (PLD/GNB) is the problem when we see this video, when it could be something wrong with the boss, or the state of healing in general not just for tanks (sans DRK). The lazy way to "fix" this problem is to make sure every boss has an enrage or nerf tank healing down to DRK levels, but I think it's more likely the problem is the current difficulty curve for expert dungeons to PN/EX Trials to PS is way too forgiving on healers when things are going right, at least in the middle of that curve where the majority of players are going to sit. At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, I'd happily let the devs take away my broil and DoT and let my chocobo do all the damage if it meant I could spent all of my time in a party healing and buffing.

I'm super biased because I solo'd both P1N and P2N myself, but I think normal raids are fine where they are difficulty wise. To me it seems like this game is balanced with the idea that most players will not be playing optimally. Maybe they don't know their rotations or maybe they keep dying to certain mechanics. But the more skilled party members can usually do what needs to be done to overcome the encounter even with less skilled party members. I do think the main draw back to this type of design is that when the party if full of skilled players, it leaves healers with little to do. I personally would love to see healers be given more offensive abilities so that they have something interesting to do when healing isn't necessary.

Though I definitely don't want to see healers become weaker-DPS. I think that's where the Savage content should be bringing more of the difficulty and requiring healers to use their full kits to keep the party alive.

[Ixon]

I'm super biased because I solo'd both P1N and P2N myself, but I think normal raids are fine where they are difficulty wise. To me it seems like this game is balanced with the idea that most players will not be playing optimally. Maybe they don't know their rotations or maybe they keep dying to certain mechanics. But the more skilled party members can usually do what needs to be done to overcome the encounter even with less skilled party members. I do think the main draw back to this type of design is that when the party if full of skilled players, it leaves healers with little to do. I personally would love to see healers be given more offensive abilities so that they have something interesting to do when healing isn't necessary.

Though I definitely don't want to see healers become weaker-DPS. I think that's where the Savage content should be bringing more of the difficulty and requiring healers to use their full kits to keep the party alive.

This all started back in Coil, when people who were casual with the game heard about how amazing the story in Coil was, but could only really experience it if you did the raids that were akin to a Savage difficulty. So, they added in the Normal modes, so those could still experience the story of the raids without needing to do the hardest raids. However, because the Normal raids are built for the most casual of player, they generally make them laughable even for mediocre players. AoE damage is pitiful, tank busters are shrugged off, and DPS checks are non-existent for a majority of the Normal fights, which is why I don't think we should really be taking any achievement done in Normal modes too seriously, as they are made for baby's first raid. The EX's and Savage modes that are done without any role should be looked at and given a balance adjustment to necessitate every role like all the fights should.

Tin foil hat on; I feel SE intentionally made the majority of normal content even easier this expansion than past ones to accommodate the flood of new players(not just refugees). You can see this clearly in the dungeons, where there isn't a single dungeon this expansion where you can pull more than two mobs, something that is always a point of contention between casual/new and hardcore/veteran players. I think the most you can do in any of the dungeons is the two mob packs plus one "roamer" on the two wall to walls before the third boss in the lvl81 dungeon, but that's it. Compare that to the beginning of Holminster Switch, or the pulls in between the first and second mini boss of Ravel's Keep, or the possible four pack pull in the beginning of Mt. Gulg. Not even the 90 dungeons are a challenge, where the hardest part is healers not knowing they can Esuna the debuff on the 2nd boss or heal up the Doom debuff on the 3rd boss of the lvl90 story dungeon. The blatant lack of actual difficulty in any of the dungeons, or any of the normal raids(P3N can catch you off guard if you aren't paying attention at least) to me seems like a design choice given the popularity of the game, which is causing the "Tanks are too strong", "Healers kits too bloated/unnecessary", etc discussions.

[Colt47]

It's amazing how many people will try to defend this. 8-person contents should not be possible with only one person at the level and roughly the ilevel it was created for. (Factoring in the loss of the Full Party bonus, the stats should be pretty close to base 570-580).

There is a serious problem if that's the case, whether it's WAR being badly overpowered, the encounter being badly undertuned, or (most likely) both.

Some people will say it's OK because it's easy mode, but even if most players aren't intense enough to do this for healers shouldn't be dead weight in any content. Players will know if they're fundamental unnecessary even if a party messes up enough that they're actually needed.

It's not warrior being overpowered. Before the stat crunch we had a DPS problem where everything was dying so fast it didn't have a chance to use all the mechanics in the fight. When they level crunched things they fixed that issue, but the defense stat balance is off on tanks vs non-tanks, so when attacks are balanced to not kill the DPS in one shot at given min-iLvL, it is lightyears behind the tank defense. It's not that warrior healing is OP, it's that monsters hit someone like they are slapping them with a wet spunge, and the dps are so frail they just fall over from it.

[Venks]

This all started back in Coil, when people who were casual with the game heard about how amazing the story in Coil was, but could only really experience it if you did the raids that were akin to a Savage difficulty. So, they added in the Normal modes, so those could still experience the story of the raids without needing to do the hardest raids. However, because the Normal raids are built for the most casual of player, they generally make them laughable even for mediocre players. AoE damage is pitiful, tank busters are shrugged off, and DPS checks are non-existent for a majority of the Normal fights, which is why I don't think we should really be taking any achievement done in Normal modes too seriously, as they are made for baby's first raid. The EX's and Savage modes that are done without any role should be looked at and given a balance adjustment to necessitate every role like all the fights should.

Tin foil hat on; I feel SE intentionally made the majority of normal content even easier this expansion than past ones to accommodate the flood of new players(not just refugees). You can see this clearly in the dungeons, where there isn't a single dungeon this expansion where you can pull more than two mobs, something that is always a point of contention between casual/new and hardcore/veteran players. I think the most you can do in any of the dungeons is the two mob packs plus one "roamer" on the two wall to walls before the third boss in the lvl81 dungeon, but that's it. Compare that to the beginning of Holminster Switch, or the pulls in between the first and second mini boss of Ravel's Keep, or the possible four pack pull in the beginning of Mt. Gulg. Not even the 90 dungeons are a challenge, where the hardest part is healers not knowing they can Esuna the debuff on the 2nd boss or heal up the Doom debuff on the 3rd boss of the lvl90 story dungeon. The blatant lack of actual difficulty in any of the dungeons, or any of the normal raids(P3N can catch you off guard if you aren't paying attention at least) to me seems like a design choice given the popularity of the game, which is causing the "Tanks are too strong", "Healers kits too bloated/unnecessary", etc discussions.

I completely agree with that assessment. I think Square/YoshiP wants the game to be approachable for everyone, even those who are really only here for the story. And yeah the dungeons in this expansion in particular have definitely suffered. It seems enemies in current dungeons are lacking more abilities compared to those in previous expansions, there's no need to interject or stun things. It would be really nice if there were Savage versions of dungeons so that there's more current content that asks players to utilize their kits.

[Deceptus]

We haven't even reached the "it's not a problem unless a tank easily solos normal" goalpost yet. The WAR, PLD, and GNB P1N solos weren't easy, and they took bloody forever.

They took forever and they were easy. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

At any rate, I think the crux of it is this; why not, instead of pushing for tanks to have their fun spoiled, invest all that time and spite into getting healers to a position where they get to enjoy themselves more fully? Punishing tanks for having fun is dumb

Yoshi-P flat out said in a live letter we will never go back to the more complicated healing DPS style of Heavensward.

Tin foil hat on; I feel SE intentionally made the majority of normal content even easier this expansion than past ones to accommodate the flood of new players(not just refugees). You can see this clearly in the dungeons, where there isn't a single dungeon this expansion where you can pull more than two mobs, something that is always a point of contention between casual/new and hardcore/veteran players. I think the most you can do in any of the dungeons is the two mob packs plus one "roamer" on the two wall to walls before the third boss in the lvl81 dungeon, but that's it. Compare that to the beginning of Holminster Switch,.

2 pack pulls have been standard since Stormblood (maybe even Heavensward). It's funny mention Holmister because it's literally 2 pack pulls. Mt. Gulg is an aberration when it comes to that rule which is funny because that's one of the more fun pulls.

[Venks]

We haven't even reached the "it's not a problem unless a tank easily solos normal" goalpost yet. The WAR, PLD, and GNB P1N solos weren't easy, and they took bloody forever.

Wait has a Gunbreaker solo cleared P1N? I can only find Aka Ada’s WAR clear and my PLD clear. Who is this Gunbreaker? Is there a vid?