When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[EaraGrace]

Venat's choice was - "it all worked itself out in the end" aside - strategically miserable.

Let's really think about this for a moment. She knows that aetherial density can counteract the effects of Dynamis. She knows that Zodiark's aetherial shield is tied to his existence and is the only thing protecting the planet. And she knows that Meteion is gathering power at the edge of the universe. In this situation, in what way does it make sense for her to not aid in the planet's defense or Zodiark's creation, and then to sunder Zodiark and reduce the aetherial density of everything in existence by 13/14ths?

Because she knows that Zodiarks presence will allow them to have a temporary and easy answer to suffering, given he’s made to answer the hopes and prayers of any who are struggling. This, plus the fact Ancients could not manipulate dynamis at all due to that selfsame aetheric density, meant they would have no way to defeat Meteion should she gather enough strength to pierce Zodiarks barrier. Sundering the world in the way she did addressed both issues.

As it stands the fact that Zodiark's aetherial currents weren't rendered useless by this is a major plothole, from the outset this had the potential to restart the Final Days instantly. Even the idea that this wouldn't dissolve Zodiark or undo his protection through the disruption to his form alone is a major leap. Not to mention that the necessity of using Dynamis to combat Meteion wasn't well established, and Venat saw firsthand that her despair was enough to bring WoL to their knees while the others were unaffected.

Only if Zodiark is killed does his change to the Aether currents lose effect, imprisoning him was the goal from the start and enervation itself was developed to do no harm to the physical, only split the soul. And on using dynamis, Venat possessed four important facts.

1. The Ancients lacked the ability to effect change in dynamis in any practical way due to the density of their souls
2. Dynamis is controlled by emotions, hope, happiness, joy, despair, sadness, grief, etc.
3. The Final Days is caused by Meteion using her control of Dynamis to imbue it with the power of a raging river, one whose waters are dyed with the despair and suffering of countless worlds
4. Zodiarks summoning would buy Etheirys time, but how long is unknown

From this the plan seems logical. You need beings capable of facing the despair Meteion is calling forth, Zodiark being a benevolent “deity” plus the Ancients own qualities would make such circumstances impossible to find on Etheirys, and thus the Sundering was needed.

Then there's the fact that she never told humanity about either the threat of Meteion nor the ideals she wanted them to either have or not have, meaning she's providing very little direction here other than "Ascians evil, Zodiark evil, kill", which is counter-productive in the extreme.

The unsundereds victory would have destroyed the shards and damned the Source. The only reason she called forth WoL was to counter their efforts, otherwise the plan for Meteions defeat would’ve gone unchanged, and in fact likely would’ve been completed sooner. Counterproductive it is not.

[Veloran]

That doesn't address the underlying problem that I posed. If Zodiark doesn't obey a law of equivalent exchange, then there is no 'sacrifice'. We can endlessly generate wishes for free in a recursive loop. The Ea were wrong. Zodiark is a perpetual motion machine of the first kind. And as you so kindly pointed out previously, that type of magic system where you can just snap your fingers and wish your problems away without a net consequence makes for very unsatisfying storytelling. You sidestep the conflict.

Except it is equivalent exchange. The Ancient were massive aether batteries individually, all of them together channeled through Zodiark is what allowed him to achieve such fundamental and worldwide effects. Meanwhile the third sacrifice was just intended to replace those massive aether reserves, at which point Zodiark's existence would continue to maintain the barrier and there would be no need to use him for such huge sweeping changes anymore.

Furthermore the magic system debate isn't one that simply boils down to ease of use to begin with. It's more about lack of rules, vaguery, and narrative use/portrayal.

but you can't judge its execution without having any indication on how it will play out.

I can judge what we've seen so far. Sure, maybe the next tiers will reveal that Lahabrea is actually having futuresight visions of the Final Days and suddenly WoL will spill the beans, but for now we're basically questing for a bunch of dead people.

Because she knows that Zodiarks presence will allow them to have a temporary and easy answer to suffering, given he’s made to answer the hopes and prayers of any who are struggling.

Funny how she would go on to serve as a supreme goddess answering the hopes and prayers of the suffering.

This, plus the fact Ancients could not manipulate dynamis at all due to that selfsame aetheric density, meant they would have no way to defeat Meteion should she gather enough strength to pierce Zodiarks barrier. Sundering the world in the way she did addressed both issues.

Not to mention that the necessity of using Dynamis to combat Meteion wasn't well established, and Venat saw firsthand that her despair was enough to bring WoL to their knees while the others were unaffected.

I'll also say again that creating aether-thin beings =/= sundering the entire world.

Only if Zodiark is killed does his change to the Aether currents lose effect,

The sundering's effects on Zodiark and the maintainment of the aether currents is something that, at best, Venat could glean by mere inference of WoL's existence in the future. But the truth is that because WoL didn't know the specific circumstances of the first Final Days and the sundering, Venat doesn't actually know the why or how of this. Combined with the fact that by her own words she intends to change the future and doesn't know if the timeline will go unchanged, this means that when doing the sundering Venat was taking a complete shot in the dark that just maybe the particular conditions of WoL's timeline would repeat in this instance and she wouldn't inadvertently destroy the world.

Furthermore as you yourself note, Meteion was gaining power over time - Meaning that even if the 13/14ths density reduction was still sufficient to block Meteion 12,000 years ago, she doesn't know if it will be into the future. If we accept that Venat believed that Zodiark would one day fail and it was merely a stalling tactic, her own actions could only have been detrimental to the length of that timespan they were spared. Even more, as you vociferously insist, she spent quite a lot of time and energy afterwards halting rejoinings, meaning that for all she knew at any moment Meteion would finally overpower the weakened aetherial density of the currents precisely because she herself had stopped their reinforcement. To the original point, this is all very bad strategizing.

otherwise the plan for Meteions defeat would’ve gone unchanged,

What plan? Her "plan" was "I'll try and maintain the status quo forever, and if that doesn't work run away with whoever I can, but maybe if someone comes along and wants to go for it I'll let them do it if they beat me in a fight."

And yes, hiding the fact that you're in a war and then starting an eternal civil war where your side has no idea what they're fighting for or against is extremely counterproductive.

[EaraGrace]

Funny how she would go on to serve as a supreme goddess answering the hopes and prayers of the suffering.

Most religious systems in universe don’t seem to worshipping Hydaelyn are they? The only actions we have record of are Her efforts to stop the calamities, but other events not so much. In fact, given the lack of any record of Her communicating directly with the Sundered, She seemed to stay out of a lot of things entirely.

I'll also say again that creating aether-thin beings =/= sundering the entire world.

Sure, but if you already have to Sunder the world to weaken Zodiark, seems like you’re accomplishing both.

The sundering's effects on Zodiark and the maintainment of the aether currents is something that, at best, Venat could glean by mere inference of WoL's existence in the future. But the truth is that because WoL didn't know the specific circumstances of the first Final Days and the sundering, Venat doesn't actually know the why or how of this.

She knew enough to develop an entirely new form of magic for the purpose of imprisoning him, giving Hydaelyn that power and betting everything on it.

Combined with the fact that by her own words she intends to change the future and doesn't know if the timeline will go unchanged, this means that when doing the sundering Venat was taking a complete shot in the dark that just maybe the particular conditions of WoL's timeline would repeat in this instance and she wouldn't inadvertently destroy the world.

A reminder that in each timeline enervation is developed by Venat and her faction for that purpose, meaning they would carry at least some understanding of how it functions yes? And the Watcher directly says they wished to keep Zodiarks magicks working, it seems clear they were aware and trying to avoid that potentiality. I’m not sure what you’d ask of them to do, given we don’t seem to disagree on what their goals were they seemed to do everything and were successful in accomplishing them.

And if they failed then in their eyes the point is moot, as the world would be doomed either way right?

Furthermore as you yourself note, Meteion was gaining power over time - Meaning that even if the 13/14ths density reduction was still sufficient to block Meteion 12,000 years ago, she doesn't know if it will be into the future. If we accept that Venat believed that Zodiark would one day fail and it was merely a stalling tactic, her own actions could only have been detrimental to the length of that timespan they were spared. Even more, as you vociferously insist, she spent quite a lot of time and energy afterwards halting rejoinings, meaning that for all she knew at any moment Meteion would finally overpower the weakened aetherial density of the currents precisely because she herself had stopped their reinforcement. To the original point, this is all very bad strategizing.

There are several presumptions we are making here. First is that weakening Zodiark necessarily means weakening the laws he’s established. Given the removal of his heart, which we know weakens the primal, didn’t raise any concern and given how willing they were to fuck around with soul exchange, I’d say the laws he wrote are pretty durable. Provided he’s not, yknow, dead.

What plan? Her "plan" was "I'll try and maintain the status quo forever, and if that doesn't work run away with whoever I can, but maybe if someone comes along and wants to go for it I'll let them do it if they beat me in a fight."

Imprison Zodiark, gather aether, and buy humanity time to recover from the Sundering and reaffirm their lives in the face of inevitable oblivion. Then, with the resources and technology developed, take the fight to Meteion.

And yes, hiding the fact that you're in a war and then starting an eternal civil war where your side has no idea what they're fighting for or against is extremely counterproductive.

Once again, if Hydaelyn had lost or the fight was never fought in the first place then it is the position of Venat and her group that the world was doomed. Igniting a conflict under that circumstance would not be counterproductive, and what do ya know you know it turned out to be correct.

Zooming out a bit, the complete plot-aegis of the protagonists is probably the worst aspect of the story as a whole. I feel practically nothing for the character's struggles or the threats against them, because it's all utterly toothless. At least in Shadowbringers when WoL was coming down with the Light-cancer that could be internalized by the player, but even that is an outlier in like eight years of nostakes character progression. This even extends to most of the tertiary characters.

The Light Warden threat had exactly the same amount of teeth as the Scions sacrifice in Ultima, a potential end that had zero chance of occurring due to meta textual elements. If anything it had less teeth, as the PC has to survive, while other characters can be killed and there still be a video game to play.

[Veloran]

Most religious systems in universe don’t seem to worshipping Hydaelyn are they? The only actions we have record of are Her efforts to stop the calamities, but other events not so much. In fact, given the lack of any record of Her communicating directly with the Sundered, She seemed to stay out of a lot of things entirely.

Hydaelyn is venerated practically whenever she was referenced earlier in the game, Minfilia explicitly prayed to her and the Zodiac Braves clearly revered her as well. Moreover she directly communicated with the sundered all the time in the form of her visions and calls to those with the Echo. And need I remind you when she interceded to save WoL or Krile's lives? I'd say that's providing her self-described "supreme goddess" powers to stop hardship and loss.

Sure, but if you already have to Sunder the world to weaken Zodiark, seems like you’re accomplishing both.

You don't have to sunder the world to sunder Zodiark. The world wasn't just sundered as a consequence of sundering him, she did so intentionally.

She knew enough to develop an entirely new form of magic for the purpose of imprisoning him, giving Hydaelyn that power and betting everything on it.

We have no idea if the sundering ability was specifically made by Venat, or if she made use of an existing concept. Regardless WoL literally tells her what she'll do, the point is she doesn't actually know the circumstances of what happened, if the world survived due to something WoL simply didn't know about. It was a complete hail mary - IE bad strategy.

A reminder that in each timeline

We have no idea if there were any other timelines. WoL told Venat that Zodiark continued to work until he was killed, the point is that she was acting in the dark as to how or why

There are several presumptions we are making here. First is that weakening Zodiark necessarily means weakening the laws he’s established.

He's weaker when we fight him. His laws are aetherical in nature and the currents protecting the world naturally would have lost 13/14ths density along with everything else. There is every reason to seriously doubt the efficacy of his shield after he's sundered.

Imprison Zodiark, gather aether, and buy humanity time to recover from the Sundering and reaffirm their lives in the face of inevitable oblivion. Then, with the resources and technology developed, take the fight to Meteion.

Her "plan" was "I'll try and maintain the status quo forever, and if that doesn't work run away with whoever I can, but maybe if someone comes along and wants to go for it I'll let them do it if they beat me in a fight."

Once again, if Hydaelyn had lost or the fight was never fought in the first place then it is the position of Venat and her group that the world was doomed. Igniting a conflict under that circumstance would not be counterproductive, and what do ya know you know it turned out to be correct.

It's the position of extreme ecological activists that the world is doomed if the human population isn't reduced and the exploitation of the environment isn't stopped. Is it justified - Not to mention productive, intelligent strategy - to bomb cities to stop people from living their self-centered, self-destructive lifestyles?

[EaraGrace]

Hydaelyn is venerated practically whenever she was referenced earlier in the game, Minfilia explicitly prayed to her and the Zodiac Braves clearly revered her as well. Moreover she directly communicated with the sundered all the time in the form of her visions and calls to those with the Echo. And need I remind you when she interceded to save WoL or Krile's lives? I'd say that's providing her self-described "supreme goddess" powers to stop hardship and loss.

All to counter explicitly the plans of the Ascians. And if such widespread worship was present we would see Her everywhere. Need I remind who the Eorzeans prayed to during the Fall of Dalamud?

You don't have to sunder the world to sunder Zodiark. The world wasn't just sundered as a consequence of sundering him, she did so intentionally.

That’s actually not what the evidence points too. While the Sundering did have positive benefits for the fight against Meteion and yes played into the decision, dialogue and other sources make clear it wasn’t the biggest reason.

Hydaelyn Triple Triad Card: This ancient primal was created under the leadership of Venat to curb the towering might of Zodiark. Summoned with a lesser sacrifice of souls, Hydaelyn chose to unleash a blow which sundered not only Zodiark but the star itself, a desperate act which allowed Her to imprison His shattered essence upon the moon. In appearance, She closely resembles Venat, who gave herself to serve as the primal's heart.

Zodiark was conceived as the very will of the star, unlike Hydaelyn who claimed the mantle post sundering and was actually summoned with the intention of keeping him in check.



And thus when you sunder Zodiark, you sunder the world.



In Her own words.

We have no idea if the sundering ability was specifically made by Venat, or if she made use of an existing concept. Regardless WoL literally tells her what she'll do, the point is she doesn't actually know the circumstances of what happened, if the world survived due to something WoL simply didn't know about. It was a complete hail mary - IE bad strategy.

We do know that it was an ability unique to Hydaelyn and never seen before Her.

From the French version.

[14:00] Emet-Selch : Des attaques qui, en plus de toucher l'enveloppe matérielle de l'adversaire, tranchaient jusqu'à son essence même... C'était du jamais vu.
= “Attacks that, in addition to touching the material envelope (body) of the opponent, cut to its very essence… It was never seen before.”

Having developed enervation, and believing the world doomed if Zodiark not imprisoned, the risk seemed well worth it. After all, if not her and her followers who else would act?

He's weaker when we fight him. His laws are aetherical in nature and the currents protecting the world naturally would have lost 13/14ths density along with everything else. There is every reason to seriously doubt the efficacy of his shield after he's sundered.

This is ultimately speculation though. Exactly what impact the Sundering had on the shield is unknown to us. The Ascians certainly didn’t seem to think they were on the clock now were they?

It's the position of extreme ecological activists that the world is doomed if the human population isn't reduced and the exploitation of the environment isn't stopped. Is it justified - Not to mention productive, intelligent strategy - to bomb cities to stop people from living their self-centered, self-destructive lifestyles?

If you wish to know my moral system it’d be easier to just ask. More to the point the analogy is wrong. Bombing innocent people would not be justified as they aren’t the ones largely polluting the planet, they are innocent and thus it would be nothing but terrorism, an abhorrent act. Bombing oil pipelines, denying organizations the chance to cut forests or mine the Earth, active armed resistance against major fossil fuel companies, I’ll just say I have no opinion so I don’t get banned.