Is ranged support dps needed as a job type anymore?

[Seraphor]

I do love these "slippery slope" posts. So bad, so predictable.

"If ranged did the same DPS as casters then no group would take casters ever "

Except no group is going to give up the 1% bonus to primary stats.

The biggest possible change would be the new meta being 2 ranged, 1 melee and 1 caster rather than 2 melee, 1 ranged and 1 caster.

It's not a "slippery slope" post. I think I explained myself fully, and my last two sentences show my position. It's a valid point, and I don't necessarily agree with it, it's just a matter of fact.
You just seem like you want to be contrary, or score internet points.
"I don't want to accept any opinion other than my own so I'll call everything else "bad"."

[Xiaoki]

It's not a "slippery slope" post. I think I explained myself fully, and my last two sentences show my position. It's a valid point, and I don't necessarily agree with it, it's just a matter of fact.
You just seem like you want to be contrary, or score internet points.
"I don't want to accept any opinion other than my own so I'll call everything else "bad"."

LOL Your main point that if ranged did the same DPS as casters then groups wouldnt take casters anymore is a slippery slope argument.

Also, you didnt even read my post to see why your slippery slope is bad and why it would never happen.

[Shuuli]

YES! YES VERY MUCH, Come play PS3! PF is freaking waiting on them for 30 minutes... Y'all beautiful physical ranged mains - we miss you!

[Tsumdere]

When it comes to the majority of players, you're correct, but that's likely not what they're looking at.

It's true that casters and melee can get pretty much as much uptime as phys ranged, but that generally comes with practice and theorycrafting. Correct timing of mobility skills like triplecast or egi phases, or gap closers, etc.
That's a learning curve, however small it may be.

If you remove the discrepancy caused by that 'ranged tax', and make all phys ranged as strong as their caster counterparts for example, then world first prog no longer has any need for casters. Why spend the first few runs practicing the timing of your gap closer if you can play a job just as strong that doesn't need those few extra practice runs?

I don't think the gap should be anywhere near as big as it is, but removing it entirely does create a problem. A niche one no doubt, but one they're probably conscious of and want to avoid.

This will never happen.

1. People like playing casters. It's a more popular role than pRanged.
2. Groups would not give up the 1% buff.
3. 2/3 of the casters have an invaluable raise that is extremely useful for all points of prog.

Besides, 2/3 of the casters are just as easy/easier than ranged NOW. SMN is easier than all of the ranged... NOW. There is no reason at all for a group to take double ranged, even if they did theoretically do the same damage as casters - there is 0 benefit and only things to lose.

[Raikai]

At this rate, I feel that the "tax" should just follow 2 parameters: mobility and complexity.

Yes, everyone is very mobile nowadays, but just under specific circumstances (like usage of triplecasts) or planning (melee knowing the telegraphs), while the aiming jobs (and SMN) can have that by default without any extra effort. That should be due a tax.

High skill ceilings should also reward better dps. A Black Mage might have a very standard rotation, but it requires you to know every inch of the fight inside out to be able to fully hit their potential, that is way above the average player.

The only support that matters nowadays is the Rez, and at the situation that it becomes useless after some point, for static groups. Salvo specific situations, the healers (when things are under control) usually don't need those Curing Waltzes, or Magick Barriers because they got abundant heals if properly coordinated. I wish it wasn't like this, but the game would have to change the way healers work to make defensive support relevant.

So yeah, the "tax" doesn't make sense nowadays for a supporting standpoint, but it does make sense for other reasons.

[CKNovel]

LOL Your main point that if ranged did the same DPS as casters then groups wouldnt take casters anymore is a slippery slope argument.

Also, you didnt even read my post to see why your slippery slope is bad and why it would never happen.

A slippery slope is a chain of event "If A happens, Z will inevitably happen".
If I clean the floor, it will become slippery -> My son will slip on the floor -> My son will knock his head on the table. "If I clean the floor, my son will knock his head on the table".

Going from "If Ranged are buffed" to "No one will take melee/casters" is incredibly unlikely and indeed one hell of slippery slope.
The real problem is that this scenario will not happen because we already experienced it!

1) During HW, SMN and BLM were not unplayed and refused in groups, they were still played despise the "broken" status of MCH&BRD.
2) Considering the argument "if X does not enough damage, no one will pick X", this is the actual situation right now. Ranged are lower, but they are not excluded from parties.
3) Like said before, it will always remain 1 melee, 1 caster, 1 ranged and 1 flex spot. Plus, you can't stack Tactician(s), but having 2 raises is not a loss.
4) People play what they want to play, despite MCH underwhelming status, there is still MCH players.

If the situation were reverse, you would just see the flex spot change.

[Flatopia]

If ranged tax gets removed, which it really should or at least made much less intrusive, bard and dancer doesn't need that huge of a buff, to be honest. Their buffs are really nice, and iirc BRD is above SMN in RDPS, so they aren't even the bottom technically and the difference isn't huge. DNC and BRD could just be given potency buffs and they'd feel great.

MCH tho... What the hell, man? Why are they given a support/ranged tax while also called the selfish DPS. Their personal DPS isn't even above any single other job, like really genuinely horrible. I don't get why it's like that. The job design isn't even terrible, they just aren't given decent numbers for literally no reason. Even if the ranged tax isn't removed they need a massive buff. I stand by that in terms of aDPS MCH should be a little bit behind Dragoon.

[ForteNightshade]

4) People play what they want to play

Just for some added emphasise.

- White Mage has universally been the highest played healer every expansion despite being the weakest overall. It's only ever faltered from that position with gross imbalance and/or poor gameplay design.
- Warrior is the most played job in tier despite it being noticeably weaker than Gunbreaker and Dark Knight. Meanwhile, the latter remains the least played tank outside of high end parsing.
- Summoner is on par with the Prange, and so much weaker than Black Mage it borders on griefing to play it in a speed setting. It's the third most popular DPS in the entire game.

In other words, people play the jobs they like regardless of underlining advantages or handicaps. Besides, nobody is even asking for Machinist to do Samurai numbers. We just want the Prange to exist beyond being the 1% because right now, every single one of them would be dead this tier if it weren't for that bonus.

[Xiaoki]

If ranged tax gets removed, which it really should or at least made much less intrusive, bard and dancer doesn't need that huge of a buff, to be honest. Their buffs are really nice, and iirc BRD is above SMN in RDPS, so they aren't even the bottom technically and the difference isn't huge. DNC and BRD could just be given potency buffs and they'd feel great.

MCH tho... What the hell, man? Why are they given a support/ranged tax while also called the selfish DPS. Their personal DPS isn't even above any single other job, like really genuinely horrible. I don't get why it's like that. The job design isn't even terrible, they just aren't given decent numbers for literally no reason. Even if the ranged tax isn't removed they need a massive buff. I stand by that in terms of aDPS MCH should be a little bit behind Dragoon.

The buffs that Bard and Dancer, while nice, do not compensate for their poor DPS.

Bard and Summoner are very close in rDPS. Between Red Mage, Bard and Summoner there's only about a 1% difference. And between Red Mage and the lowest rDPS (Machinist) there is around 3% difference. But the difference between Red Mage and the next highest DPS, which is Ninja, is around 4%.
That's a big difference because the difference between Ninja and top DPS (Black Mage) is only a little more then the difference between Red Mage, Bard and Summoner.

[Sequora]

It used to have a real support niche that justified its playstyle, now it's just an arbitrarily easy job you put your weakest raid member on, so their mistakes hurt you the least.

Because most of the melee jobs are super challenging to play. Not having 100% uptime does not mean it’s difficult.