Is ranged support dps needed as a job type anymore?

[Anvaire]

The original guide video was quite clear that the way to actually make it work, w/o major losses from clipping and drift, is to use hotbar copying. The new guide is even more clear, discussing the matter from the beginning. There's no "lie" beyond people failing to watch the entire video, misunderstanding what they're seeing, or being hyperbolic when discussing it.

And no, it's not something that could be done on any job, not to the same degree of success at any rate. The present SMN one-button macro chain needs a specific range of SpS to not innately drift just from the few places they couldn't prevent clips. Thus, any job with semi-random procs (BRD, BLM) or more nuanced optimization can't be one-buttoned to the same degree of effectiveness. People could always macro their rotations - the real issue exposed with summoner is how close to the skill ceiling one can get with a near-automated (just add mashing) setup.

The point is that people are claiming that its a single macro when it isn't that is where the misconception and the lie lies. Saying its a one macro button press has given rise the erroneous belief that SMN rotation can be fit within a singular macro which is wrong. Incidently, i'd like to see how this macro fares with savage and more difficult fights than extreme 1 - because while optimisation is rather low, and does need improving on smn, there is some optimisation that the macro cannot account for. In terms of blm they can be one buttoned, but i agree that it would hold the same effectiveness.

[Easayia]

The buffs that Bard and Dancer, while nice, do not compensate for their poor DPS.

Bard and Summoner are very close in rDPS. Between Red Mage, Bard and Summoner there's only about a 1% difference. And between Red Mage and the lowest rDPS (Machinist) there is around 3% difference. But the difference between Red Mage and the next highest DPS, which is Ninja, is around 4%.
That's a big difference because the difference between Ninja and top DPS (Black Mage) is only a little more then the difference between Red Mage, Bard and Summoner.

I still think this whole argument of jobs having more dps then others is moot.
Your raiding with a team. Range DPS like Bard and Dancer are providing damage buffs to the team so why would they not lose some damage in return? or would you rather you just always take them in every party because of their support and buffed up new DPS? When I complete a fight I do not care about if I have higher DPS then Melee or a caster I did my job I buffed them we cleared done. thats all there is to it. People care far to much about damage numbers on jobs. They have it so you take one of each you get the damage buff for the party as well I dont see an issue just people complaining that they dont do as much damage as people who cant be on the boss at all times which it legit doesnt matter. Play your job practice get the clear done you did your job. Its really no different then gearing in this game. Gear serves no purpose but to speed up re clears and even with it you still have to know your job and have skill and have learned the fights to clear them. This game is extremely balanced out and theres a reason why things are how they are.

[Cyd3l]

I still think this whole argument of jobs having more dps then others is moot.
Your raiding with a team. Range DPS like Bard and Dancer are providing damage buffs to the team so why would they not lose some damage in return? or would you rather you just always take them in every party because of their support and buffed up new DPS?

Because the culmination of those dmg buffs add so little its more beneficial to just take another high DPS class instead. For simplicity: if SAM does 100 dps and Dancer does 75 DPS, then for there to be a benefit to bring a Dancer the buffs need to add at least 25 DPS. Otherwise just bring 2 SAMs. Right now the support buffs are turning that 75 into like an 85 once buffs are added to it. When you see those rankings people keep posting with Dancer at the bottom, that is already including the Dancer's raids buffs. If you want to see how bad their personal DMG actually is switch it over to nDPS and its way lower. Dancer is at the bottom for solo / personal DPS and next to last when all their buffs are taken into account too in groups. So what's the point? Bard is in a similar boat. The only thing making them not completely overshadowed by every other class is the 1% stat buff for having any ranged role.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

The point is that people are claiming that its a single macro when it isn't that is where the misconception and the lie lies.

Your post I responded to, and the notion of a "lie" existing here at all, carries the implied accusation that the maker of the original video was deceptive. They were not. They explained exactly how the setup works in the video. "Lie" is a very strong word that carries connotations not only of untruthfulness, but intent.

Saying its a one macro button press has given rise the erroneous belief that SMN rotation can be fit within a singular macro which is wrong.

See the "people failing to watch the entire video, misunderstanding what they're seeing, or being hyperbolic when discussing it" line of my post. Again, the video creator was never deceptive - the swap setup does indeed reduce the job to being played with one button, at a level of effectiveness in the top quartile in many fights, and the video explains how it accomplishes that. Misrepresentation by third parties does not make the original a "lie." Furthermore, the difference between being literally played via macro and "just add mashing" via hotbar swaps is trivial. That the job can still be played nearly-automated at a high level reveals the ankle-deepness of its depth, and is a major ding against its design.

Incidentally, I'd like to see how this macro fares with savage and more difficult fights than extreme 1 - because while optimization is rather low, and does need improving on smn, there is some optimization that the macro cannot account for. In terms of blm they can be one buttoned, but I agree that it would hold the same effectiveness.

The setup as presented will do worse in fights requiring particular ranges of spell-speed to optimize (e.g., P2S), as it requires its own particular speed-speed to not drift or break. Because that's largely the extent of SMN's optimization right now - FF11 style gear swaps to get the spell-spell needed to not drift the rotation because of boss jumps.

The one-button-setup could be fixed for some fights via altering the timings on some of the swaps. Though the effort involved would probably not be worth the effort, except maybe to make a point. Such a fix probably wouldn't work for all fights though: limitations on macros likely render the setup permanently inefficient on fights that need exceptionally high spell-speed (the hotbar swaps won't go fast enough to keep up with the shorter GCD).

I do not consider this much of a silver lining for SMN.

[Easayia]

that 1% is why all this argument is moot. you take 1 of each dps type because you get the buff people saying you could just take another DPS in thier place dont know what they are talking about. You cant do that because you lose the full damage buff for the party why would you do that?

your getting the 1% plus their damage buff to the rest of the party which makes up for the dps loss.....

[Aword3213]

I read an interesting thread in a Chinese Forum concluded that EW is the most balanced expansion FF14 has ever been. The gap between melee/caster DPS and ranged physical DPS in EW has been reduced drastically.

In patch 5.05, the gap between melee and ranged is 9.817139508
in patch 6.05 the gap between melee and ranged is 4.83723325

Source

As for uptimes being easy, I think uptime strategy requires extra effort to plan out and precise positioning to execute. Those uptime strats don't come up at day 1. I'm actually quite okay with rewarding melee with higher dps

Regarding casters, I agree that if SE keeps giving mobility options for caster dps, they should keep narrowing the gap between physical and magical ranged.

[CKNovel]

As for uptimes being easy, I think uptime strategy requires extra effort to plan out and precise positioning to execute. Those uptime strats don't come up at day 1. I'm actually quite okay with rewarding melee with higher dps

Most of uptime strats happens day 1.
The only exception was E8S, light rampant that needed a bit more brain matter.

For this tier, we haven't changed anything in my group because we straight-up started with great uptime.
P1S is full melee uptime, P2S if full melee uptime.
P3S only requires to bait a big aoe and that's all you need to do for melee uptime.
P4SP1 is a bit more tricky back in week 1 but now you can still manage a very good uptime.
P4SP2 you don't lose a lot of melee uptime, you could lose a GCD or two but that's really it.