Is ranged support dps needed as a job type anymore?

[Rika007]

Notice its only ranged who say the free movement is pointless and shouldn't be counted against them.

Try having to stand still and do mechanics when the fights are HARD. Sure you have them memorized now and are over geared.

Literally did an entire Savage tier on the most un-mobile job in the game (WHM). Did all 3 casters for 3 other tiers. Cleared all those tiers in less then a month each time and that wasn't with hard progging every week either. And played all of them at a pretty decent level too.

So saying this as a Bard main who has played on jobs that "have to stand still and do mechanics when the fights are HARD" and do them when I did not have them "memorized" or was "over geared" let me be very explicit here. Free movement means absolutely NOTHING in this game.

[Grimoire-M]

They have their place but XIV's design direction makes that irrelevant and that's the core problem. They're good jobs in a game that no longer exists.

[Reinha]

Try having to stand still and do mechanics when the fights are HARD. Sure you have them memorized now and are over geared.

Which dps jobs have to stand still? BLM. That doesn't explain why other ones blow ranged jobs completely out of the water. RDM and SMN can raise and heal but they do more damage than MCH and BRD who can't. Some melee have healing utility and they do so much more damage that bringing a ranged is not even worth it for the 1% party bonus.

[Azuri]

Which dps jobs have to stand still? BLM. That doesn't explain why other ones blow ranged jobs completely out of the water. RDM and SMN can raise and heal but they do more damage than MCH and BRD who can't. Some melee have healing utility and they do so much more damage that bringing a ranged is not even worth it for the 1% party bonus.

Might want to check your sources. RDM and SMN are both very much in "physical ranged" damage group. And as long as logs exist, it will always be worth to bring a job for 1% role bonus. Kihra out there doing more work to keep all roles desirable better than SE ever did.

[Cabalabob]

Literally did an entire Savage tier on the most un-mobile job in the game (WHM). Did all 3 casters for 3 other tiers. Cleared all those tiers in less then a month each time and that wasn't with hard progging every week either. And played all of them at a pretty decent level too.

So saying this as a Bard main who has played on jobs that "have to stand still and do mechanics when the fights are HARD" and do them when I did not have them "memorized" or was "over geared" let me be very explicit here. Free movement means absolutely NOTHING in this game.

People say range and mobility means nothing, but it does and this is a fact because we’ve seen it before during 2.0 when literally everyone was a BRD because it brought the highest damage while also being ranged and mobile with extra party support.

Should the gap between jobs be as big as it is? Probably not. With how toned down the support aspect of the ranged role has been it is purely range and mobility that gives them their tax. MCH in particular should be doing MUCH more than it is right now. But should it be equal to SAM or BLM? Absolutely not.

You can say “fights are scripted, once you learn a job it’s hindrances don’t matter”. But it doesn’t change that if an AoE is fired at a BLM they give up a hard cast to move out of it while a MCH can move freely, if a mob does a point blank AoE a SAM has to time moving out so that they get their GCD rolling and get out of range just before it goes off and have to get back in again before their GCD rolls around while a MCH can just walk off as soon as the AoE appears and never come back.

[Izyla]

You can say “fights are scripted, once you learn a job it’s hindrances don’t matter”. But it doesn’t change that if an AoE is fired at a BLM they give up a hard cast to move out of it while a MCH can move freely, if a mob does a point blank AoE a SAM has to time moving out so that they get their GCD rolling and get out of range just before it goes off and have to get back in again before their GCD rolls around while a MCH can just walk off as soon as the AoE appears and never come back.

You're making it sound like giving up a cast to move out of an aoe instantly puts you at the bottom of the dps but tbh my issue is that even if casters or melee lose uptime every now and then they are still so far ahead that it doesn't really matter. There were like 2 fights in SHB that were bad for melee and phys ranged was still pretty much at the bottom. Even in scenarios were phys ranged mobility is supposed to shine it still doesn't really.

[Rika007]

People say range and mobility means nothing, but it does and this is a fact because we’ve seen it before during 2.0 when literally everyone was a BRD because it brought the highest damage while also being ranged and mobile with extra party support.

Should the gap between jobs be as big as it is? Probably not. With how toned down the support aspect of the ranged role has been it is purely range and mobility that gives them their tax. MCH in particular should be doing MUCH more than it is right now. But should it be equal to SAM or BLM? Absolutely not.

You can say “fights are scripted, once you learn a job it’s hindrances don’t matter”. But it doesn’t change that if an AoE is fired at a BLM they give up a hard cast to move out of it while a MCH can move freely, if a mob does a point blank AoE a SAM has to time moving out so that they get their GCD rolling and get out of range just before it goes off and have to get back in again before their GCD rolls around while a MCH can just walk off as soon as the AoE appears and never come back.

If one of your big reasons for why they shouldn't do something is the balance of the game nearly 9 years ago when they still thought having an accuracy stat was a good idea, I just don't know what tell ya honey. The amount of things they've put in and removed to enforce a parity amongst the DPS between then and now has insured there will never be the 2 monks 2 Bards meta of early 2.0. LB generation, 1% role contribution, lack of synergistic abilities like piercing debuff, etc etc the list goes on and on. We are never gonna see a meta like that again.

Even if we were to just set a hard line and go: Alright ultimate parity time. The most greedy dps of each role will all be in line with each other dps wise. MCH, SAM, BLM all will do the same damage. Then the middle of the pack dps roles in utility will all do the same damage as well. RPR, MNK, NIN, DRG, SMN. Then the more support heavy ones will all be on the same level as well. BRD, DNC, RDM. And you went ahead and said we will have a 100-200 rdps gap between all 3 of those 'tiers' you STILL wouldn't have a hard locked meta of all Machinist because no group in their right minds would A) take the hit to their raid wide dps losing the extra 2% damage from not having 2 present roles, and B) NO ONE WOULD WANT TO.

And the idea of a Black Mage dropping a cast now is hilarious. Black Mage as a job now is more mobile then Bard and Machinist were in Heavensward. You literally swim in instant casts on that role. Maybe you would have a point if we still had the mechanics of 2.0 and 3.0 that really enforced a party to split up and ranged roles with their perfect uptime could shine. But that isn't the case.

[Seraphor]

With ranged attack not being a straight loss, the tax just becomes more and more ridiculous.
SMN is a physical ranged in gameplay but has a much stronger support than a support DPS.

MCH has even less support than RPR, BRD has niche support and DNC somehow gets the best treatment.

Nothing justify ranged tax since ShB:
-You would still have 1 caster, 1 melee, 1 ranged and a flex spot. Always has been
-Due to mechanics being quite easy to melees and casters having more mobility, double ranged never brought any advantages. It's the opposite, a second ranged is always shotting your group in the foot.
-Yes, the skill floor is lower. But there is no job with high skill ceiling other than BLM who remains far from complex.
-The whole situation just forces a reward ceiling on ranged. The jobs are not as efficient as melees by design.

For the sake of simplicity, we'll say the ranged are 90% efficient compared to a melee job.
That becomes quite frustrating when you decide to gear up said job but you know you'll only get 90% of the value.
This is also frustrating when a melee can afk or forget an important mechanic of its job but still outdps a ranged.

It's old design, it should have died 3 years ago when mana song and tp song were removed.

When it comes to the majority of players, you're correct, but that's likely not what they're looking at.

It's true that casters and melee can get pretty much as much uptime as phys ranged, but that generally comes with practice and theorycrafting. Correct timing of mobility skills like triplecast or egi phases, or gap closers, etc.
That's a learning curve, however small it may be.

If you remove the discrepancy caused by that 'ranged tax', and make all phys ranged as strong as their caster counterparts for example, then world first prog no longer has any need for casters. Why spend the first few runs practicing the timing of your gap closer if you can play a job just as strong that doesn't need those few extra practice runs?

I don't think the gap should be anywhere near as big as it is, but removing it entirely does create a problem. A niche one no doubt, but one they're probably conscious of and want to avoid.

[Xiaoki]

When it comes to the majority of players, you're correct, but that's likely not what they're looking at.

It's true that casters and melee can get pretty much as much uptime as phys ranged, but that generally comes with practice and theorycrafting. Correct timing of mobility skills like triplecast or egi phases, or gap closers, etc.
That's a learning curve, however small it may be.

If you remove the discrepancy caused by that 'ranged tax', and make all phys ranged as strong as their caster counterparts for example, then world first prog no longer has any need for casters. Why spend the first few runs practicing the timing of your gap closer if you can play a job just as strong that doesn't need those few extra practice runs?

I don't think the gap should be anywhere near as big as it is, but removing it entirely does create a problem. A niche one no doubt, but one they're probably conscious of and want to avoid.

I do love these "slippery slope" posts. So bad, so predictable.

"If ranged did the same DPS as casters then no group would take casters ever "

Except no group is going to give up the 1% bonus to primary stats.

The biggest possible change would be the new meta being 2 ranged, 1 melee and 1 caster rather than 2 melee, 1 ranged and 1 caster.

[Rilifane]

People say range and mobility means nothing, but it does and this is a fact because we’ve seen it before during 2.0 when literally everyone was a BRD because it brought the highest damage while also being ranged and mobile with extra party support.

Exactly, during 2.0.
It once mattered but that was years ago and it's time to let go of this idea that range tax is well-deserved when it's just a relic of the past because fights and toolkits have been designed around much better uptime for casters and melees. Even BLM, the "turret", has become incredibly mobile and it was already mobile enough in Shb.
With the addition of the 5% reduction for the opposite damage type on Addle/ Feint and more partywide heals/ shields on dps other than phys ranged, added mobility for all casters and more melee-friendly mechanics in Ex and above, there is absolutely nothing phys ranged has over other dps jobs that would justify this gap.

Look at the statistics and you'll notice that other dps start higher than phys ranged although they are supposed to have the advantage in the lower percentiles because melees and casters still need to learn to map and greed properly while the phys ranged have full mobility, such a huge advantage! They don't have to worry about dps loss!
If it was an advantage then phys ranged would start higher than others and fall behind as gameplay improves, but no. They're always bottom tier.
No matter the gameplay level, casters and melees are always signifcantly ahead.