Alliance Raids and players not waiting for Cutscene Watchers

[YukikoKurosawa]

Again, you underestimate how easy it is to stay alive as a dps or healer when most bosses are as telegraphed as they are. You can choose not to participate if you wish, but chances are that someone else will join in the moment I land the first attack and we will all finish the raid faster while the new person is safe within the cutscene, free to enjoy it for as long as they wish. We will all then forcibly watch the true final boss cutscene during its transition.

Letting people wipe "to teach them a lesson" is an example of uncooperative behavior that violates ToS. Pulling when the majority have already watched a cutscene in a *24* man instance is not. Also for the dungeons I mentioned in my post-if you think I will sit there doing nothing during one of those dungeons that literally goes out of its way to slow people down with poison puddles and another whose pre-boss cutscene must be at least 5 minutes long, I am very sorry but I would rather bail entirely in favor of a shorter dungeon and leave the sprouts to find someone else to do the run with.

I notice that we have gone past trying to appeal to my morality, but I am still unconvinced of the sacredness of letting sprouts watch the entire minutes-long cutscenes without pulling ahead. There is simply no justifying the wait past the first 2 weeks that the raid launches in, because after that chances are most people you'll see in there are no longer new and want to just grab their loot and leave.

I assure you were we in a 4 man, which is the scenario you mentioned, and I am the tank, and you pull as a dps, nobody is going to defend you, nobody is going to be mad at me for letting you die. I'm also sure nobody would oppose if I initiated a vote-kick which odds are I would. To suggest you, knowingly, doing something toxic, being responded to predictably, then painting the people you were toxic towards as the bad guys and suggesting they be banned (and I have seen you in other threads on this topic suggest cutscene watchers are breaking TOS for watching cutscenes after you pulled without warning or consent (and not even as the tank) because they were too busy watching a cutscene to help). This is the literal definition of being passive aggressive, I'd go further and argue this is just straight up anti-social behavior.

In an alliance raid? Sure you'll probably get away with it. You might not, though. But in dungeon? No, I assure you you will be running in alone and recieving no heals or taunting off, and odds are end up vote-kicked. It doesn't matter if you don't cause a wipe, you're displaying an extremely toxic attitude and utter lack of respect for other players which I have zero tolerance or patience for.

[Aurora_Sylphy]

I assure you were we in a 4 man, which is the scenario you mentioned, and I am the tank, and you pull as a dps, nobody is going to defend you, nobody is going to be mad at me for letting you die. I'm also sure nobody would oppose if I initiated a vote-kick which odds are I would. To suggest you, knowingly, doing something toxic, being responded to predictably, then painting the people you were toxic towards as the bad guys and suggesting they be banned (and I have seen you in other threads on this topic suggest cutscene watchers are breaking TOS for watching cutscenes after you pulled without warning or consent (and not even as the tank) because they were too busy watching a cutscene to help). This is the literal definition of being passive aggressive, I'd go further and argue this is just straight up anti-social behavior.

As much as you disagree with a mindset like that of Averyond Dreams can feel, it is indeed against TOS to do that. While the TOS is very flexible in terms of playing style, that is technically according to the TOS, there is nothing wrong with a healer not dps at all, or a player single targeting in a mob pack is considered a play style difference (as weird as that might sound) and thus is not against TOS, and forcing them to play otherwise is technically part of the TOS and someone could (if someone was feeling petty) ban someone who wasn't the using the kindest or most polite language for helping because it hurt someone's ego.

On the other hand anything that is deemed 'aiding the enemy' is against TOS, and the TOS even highlights the idea of letting someone die because you don't like something they do or said is against TOS and is a ban able offense, so letting someone die for pulling earlier is a TOS violation and a ban able offence if someone (or enough people) report it. Playing your job terribly, refusing to use AOE in AOE packs, not dps as a healer, all playstyle differences, but not doing your role intentionally (that is a healer not healing, tank not maintaining aggro on mobs, dps not even attacking a single mob and afking are all things teemed as aiding the enemy. MPK and similar things also fall under this. Now I think any GM worth their salt would take context into account, but when dealing with mass reports I would not blame them for defaulting to 'against TOS; hit ban, not against TOS, do nothing. Now by the same TOS talking about good player etiquette and that pulling before everyone is ready could technically be stretched to be given the idea of aiding the enemy, (i.e a wipe beasue of not having a healer or something) is also probably reportable, and so it really would be up to a GM to ban one, ban the other, ban both players or just ignore it as a relatively harmless scuffle. Also this is entirely reliant on someone actually reporting either incident tbf. But since it take just one report, if you were in a 4 man with Aveyond Dreams and the other three reported her and she reported you (if you were tanking and did a 'you pull, you tank' thing letting them die), you may both just end up with a ban/warning as painful as that sounds.

[ForteNightshade]

I assure you were we in a 4 man, which is the scenario you mentioned, and I am the tank, and you pull as a dps, nobody is going to defend you, nobody is going to be mad at me for letting you die. I'm also sure nobody would oppose if I initiated a vote-kick which odds are I would. To suggest you, knowingly, doing something toxic, being responded to predictably, then painting the people you were toxic towards as the bad guys and suggesting they be banned (and I have seen you in other threads on this topic suggest cutscene watchers are breaking TOS for watching cutscenes after you pulled without warning or consent (and not even as the tank) because they were too busy watching a cutscene to help). This is the literal definition of being passive aggressive, I'd go further and argue this is just straight up anti-social behavior.

In an alliance raid? Sure you'll probably get away with it. You might not, though. But in dungeon? No, I assure you you will be running in alone and recieving no heals or taunting off, and odds are end up vote-kicked. It doesn't matter if you don't cause a wipe, you're displaying an extremely toxic attitude and utter lack of respect for other players which I have zero tolerance or patience for.

If you were my tank and deliberately let the DPS die because they were slightly ahead and grabbed mobs simply to get the ball rolling, I'd initiate the Vote Kick on you long before them because you're the only actually griefing in this hypothetical. The DRG running ahead to get Hi-Jump on CD so they can go into Nastrond immediately once the mobs are all gathered up didn't cause the wipe. In fact, they were attempting to make things easier on both of us by killing mobs faster. You, on the other hand, did. Granted, in this scenario, I'd slap a heal on them to ensure they live. It's actually quite satisfying when a tank throws a tantrum over someone else pulling the same mob they were already going to pull a second faster only for the DPS and healer to promptly show how unnecessary a small pulling tank actually is.

Don't cite toxicity and a lack of respect then proceed to act toxic and disrespectful yourself. It really doesn't help your argument.

[YukikoKurosawa]

If you were my tank and deliberately let the DPS die because they were slightly ahead and grabbed mobs simply to get the ball rolling, I'd initiate the Vote Kick on you long before them because you're the only actually griefing in this hypothetical. The DRG running ahead to get Hi-Jump on CD so they can go into Nastrond immediately once the mobs are all gathered up didn't cause the wipe. In fact, they were attempting to make things easier on both of us by killing mobs faster. You, on the other hand, did. Granted, in this scenario, I'd slap a heal on them to ensure they live. It's actually quite satisfying when a tank throws a tantrum over someone else pulling the same mob they were already going to pull a second faster only for the DPS and healer to promptly show how unnecessary a small pulling tank actually is.

Don't cite toxicity and a lack of respect then proceed to act toxic and disrespectful yourself. It really doesn't help your argument.

It's not the dps's job to pull mobs. If a dps is constantly rushing ahead and pulling things that's extremely annoying as the tank to deal with. It's actually hilarious how some of you are suggesting outright toxic and antisocial behavior, even justifying it with selfish rationals, then trying to paint me and anyone else who has a problem with your behavior as the bad guys. Nobody is forcing you to pull ahead of a tank. Nobody is forcing you to pull when someone is watching a cutscene. That's where you entire demented argument falls apart. You would have perhaps some shred of a point otherwise, but since you yourselves are intentionally pulling mobs when it's not your role, pulling bosses when you KNOW someone is in a cutscene (even if that someone is a healer), then complaining when someone doesn't support your actions, you don't get to cite TOS and trying to have those people banned, it's actually psychotic that you think that's an appropriate response to people not supporting your own godawful behavior.

Nobody. Forced. You. To. Pull. Early. Get that through your thick skulls because you cannot say "WTF this guy didn't help me when I was fighting the boss while they were in a cutscene or even make sure they were ready and not even AFK, TOS TOS TOS TOS TOS TOS". You are creating a problem, something goes wrong, then you blame people upset by your own godawful actions for the problem you created.

You people tried to moralize me and others over this entire topic, then come and say "actually I just play for myself IDGAF about other people's experiences yet I still expect everyone else to respect mine". You just lost the entire plot. But go ahead and do that, see how that actually works out for you in game. From my experience, outside alliance raids as I said already, it doesn't work out for you too well.

[MilkieTea]

snip

You might want to analyze yourself, your stance is hypocritical, because you are also, playing for yourself and do not care about others experiences, yet you still expect everyone to respect yours.

Edit: also, YPYT is against ToS ^-^

[Saraide]

It's not the dps's job to pull mobs. If a dps is constantly rushing ahead and pulling things that's extremely annoying as the tank to deal with. It's actually hilarious how some of you are suggesting outright toxic and antisocial behavior, even justifying it with selfish rationals, then trying to paint me and anyone else who has a problem with your behavior as the bad guys. Nobody is forcing you to pull ahead of a tank. Nobody is forcing you to pull when someone is watching a cutscene. That's where you entire demented argument falls apart. You would have perhaps some shred of a point otherwise, but since you yourselves are intentionally pulling mobs when it's not your role, pulling bosses when you KNOW someone is in a cutscene (even if that someone is a healer), then complaining when someone doesn't support your actions, you don't get to cite TOS and trying to have those people banned, it's actually psychotic that you think that's an appropriate response to people not supporting your own godawful behavior.

Nobody. Forced. You. To. Pull. Early. Get that through your thick skulls because you cannot say "WTF this guy didn't help me when I was fighting the boss while they were in a cutscene or even make sure they were ready and not even AFK, TOS TOS TOS TOS TOS TOS". You are creating a problem, something goes wrong, then you blame people upset by your own godawful actions for the problem you created.

You people tried to moralize me and others over this entire topic, then come and say "actually I just play for myself IDGAF about other people's experiences yet I still expect everyone else to respect mine". You just lost the entire plot. But go ahead and do that, see how that actually works out for you in game. From my experience, outside alliance raids as I said already, it doesn't work out for you too well.

Not sure where you learned to tank (if at all) but having a group of mobs already aggro'd makes it easier to grab aggro yourself because they are already closing in and therefore less spread out.

[ForteNightshade]

snip

I see I have touched upon quite the nerve.

What's hilarious here is the absolute comical notion that pulling ahead of a tank could ever remotely correlate to psychopathy . Good lord. Talk about being melodramatic. Your being portrayed as the "bad guy" because only your behavior directly leads to a wipe. A DPS pulling ahead may be annoying to some, however it won't inherently cause any issues providing you know how to tank past level 50. Deliberately turning off Tank Stance, refusing to AoE or whatever other method devised in an effort to kill another player, can. Therefore, who's actually griefing here? You can dress it down in whatever manner you fancy, it doesn't change the end result: You intentionally tried—possibly succeeded—in killing another player for no other reason than your bruised ego. If you're going to go down this route at least acknowledge you're being toxic yourself instead of trying to take some moral high ground. I can appreciate it being annoyed but even by your own logic you're stooping down to the same level you described as "demented" and "anti-social"

As a tank main myself, I couldn't care less if someone pulls ahead of me. It literally changes nothing I do but may benefit them to either keep their abilities rolling, set up stronger hitting skills like the aforementioned Nastrond or condense the mobs so that my AoE will more easily pick them up. If they throw up Arm's Length, then they've actually made my job even easier by using a "cooldown". Ultimately, aggro generation is utterly braindead. Press your AoE buttons once each and every mob is instantly yours no matter what the DPS or healer do.

I should also note I never once mentioned pulling during a cutscene despite your little rant here. I specifically highlighted your mention of letting DPS or Healers die in a dungeon setting. So...

You accuse myself and others of not GAF yet that equally applies to you. If three people in a dungeon want to go fast but you, as the potential tank, don't. Your posts have screamed "I'm the dictator here! We're doing things my way because I'm the tank!" Thus, you're now subjecting three other players to your selfish expectations. Of course, that's okay because tanks dictate the pace and all that nonsense, right? Likewise, you're demanding upwards of 23 other people in a raid to wait around for cutscenes. Now if they do, that's cool. I usually do myself. If they don't though, it's also fine. When you queue into Duty Finder, you get whatever you get. Isn't that what us "speed runners" are always told?

They're also perfectly capable of not running ahead when I, the tank, will already be doing that anyway unless the healer wants me to go slower. They can also be given a firm reminder of how much more replaceable they are as dps compared to the tank if they want to make this a problem.

Contrary to popular belief, tanks and even healers are just as replaceable. It usually takes less than five minutes for another tank to pop in should someone leave or be kicked. The DF always prioritizes filling active duties before creating new ones. Unless you're running stuff at odd hours, you'll get a replacement quickly. No role is special.

Although, it's a bit ironic you cop this attitude, which is inherently selfish, yet claim it's everyone else who's toxic.

[IttyBitty]

snip

The hilarious thing is that the people who are most likely to get bottom bothered by someone pulling ahead of them are usually the type to pull small, in which case a tank is not necessary and you can clear the dungeon in approximately equivalent time even without them. I will always kick prima donna tanks without any regret whatsoever cos I ain't got time for that attitude.

[AnnRam]

If you were my tank and deliberately let the DPS die because they were slightly ahead and grabbed mobs simply to get the ball rolling, I'd initiate the Vote Kick on you long before them because you're the only actually griefing in this hypothetical. The DRG running ahead to get Hi-Jump on CD so they can go into Nastrond immediately once the mobs are all gathered up didn't cause the wipe. In fact, they were attempting to make things easier on both of us by killing mobs faster. You, on the other hand, did. Granted, in this scenario, I'd slap a heal on them to ensure they live. It's actually quite satisfying when a tank throws a tantrum over someone else pulling the same mob they were already going to pull a second faster only for the DPS and healer to promptly show how unnecessary a small pulling tank actually is.

Don't cite toxicity and a lack of respect then proceed to act toxic and disrespectful yourself. It really doesn't help your argument.

x2.

Typical idiotic and immature attitude " if you pull it first you tank it" , it takes one skill to fully grab aggro again.