What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[OhNooo]

I have mixed feelings about 5.3. On the one hand, I like how they essentially mirrored a WoL in him, with how he's willing to endure any pain and suffering, even to the loss of his identity, to bring his duty to completion. I think Elidibus is by far one of the most heroic personas in the story, alongside Hades, in how they would both labour for 12k years, in near complete desolation, playing the role of villain as necessary, to rectify what they saw as a great injustice done to their kind. However, I was somewhat let down by how they concluded his focus on the balance of dark and light and jettisoned him from his more conciliatory Emissary stance, which as you say went to Emet.

Looking back, I was kind of taken aback at how his personality seemed to change in 5.3 because I had always seen Elidibus is calm and collected compared to Lahabrea and the others. Then I figured maybe we would end up needing to work with him to keep balance because of part of Lahabrea’s speech in the Praetorium. But the way they handled him just seemed so wrong to me.

And then after the trial we get Elidibus's soul to pop up and lecture Venat on how she gave up hope on them all and robbed them of a chance to even properly pass Hermes's stupid "test", and... Wait no sorry, that's my unwritten AU fanfic.

If you ever write any fanfics I would low key probably read them lmao drop a link if you ever do xD

[Lauront]

It was the story equivalent of getting wasted, then waking up in bed with an ogre next to you that you thought was beautiful at the time. Very easy to get swept up in the music, though there were some moments that got me. And speaking of characters who were wasted/forgotten, what about Regula van Hydrus? The man who was the equivalent of General Leo from FFVI, the emperor's best friend since childhood, who sacrificed himself for a boy? No mention, but I haven't gotten around to the Garlemald sidequests yet... Also, lots of mourning for Moenbryda, but nothing about Nabriales, the man that she sacrificed herself to stop. Even Emet-Selch left him out (and poor Deudalaphon who may as well not exist) in his quick rundown of the Convocation seats in Elpis. Poor lads.

Also, your brain lasted longer than mine. I was practically comatose and beseeching Ra-La by the 23rd 2000-word Scion speech about the better brighter tomorrow, stand tall my friend, hope hope hopey hope hope.

Not so much as a word for poor Regula.

And preferably actually involving Gaius, Cid and Nero.

No, I'm serious here. I like Maxima and Lucia, but... OH come on!

I am especially offended by Nero not getting a single voiced line, in fact having literally less presence than (checks notes) Livia and Rhitahtyn. Actually, did anyone else find that dungeon weird? I mean I have no issue with the choice of end boss, if we're gonna die on this Fandaniel hill then let us die on it, but why Livia and Rhitahtyn?? We had Ilberd and Papalymo in a trash pack, and then we saw Moenbryda and Haurchefant. So, then... why not Nabriales and Charibert, right?

I was surprised Yotsuyu didn't complete the Amon/Fandaniel duo to form a trio of spite.

Looking back, I was kind of taken aback at how his personality seemed to change in 5.3 because I had always seen Elidibus is calm and collected compared to Lahabrea and the others. Then I figured maybe we would end up needing to work with him to keep balance because of part of Lahabrea’s speech in the Praetorium. But the way they handled him just seemed so wrong to me.

Indeed, that's where I thought they'd tie it all together, especially because the writers have gone on record saying the current state of the world (=broken into shards) is bad depending on your perspective, and already unstable. And we sort of saw this with what would've happened if the Source had perished.

[Skyborne]

Looking back, I was kind of taken aback at how his personality seemed to change in 5.3 because I had always seen Elidibus is calm and collected compared to Lahabrea and the others. Then I figured maybe we would end up needing to work with him to keep balance because of part of Lahabrea’s speech in the Praetorium. But the way they handled him just seemed so wrong to me.

Am of the same mind regarding Elidibus, that white-robed Ascian who was supposed to be different from the rest. Then he sort of just took over Lahabrea's role after the breadman died, and Emet-Selch seemed to usurp his role. I'd hoped we would use that power-of-friendship trope to reach out to this man who really was not much different from us, even if he was forced to do some pretty monstrous things in our pov. Why couldn't we weaken him, then use the stones to remind him of who he once was, and have him be an ally of sorts and we'd figure out a way to rejoin without Calamities? This isn't that kind of story, though, unfortunately.

The 'power of friendship' is used only to kill, not actually to win the hearts and minds of those different from us. But hey, at least the funny cheeseburger earwiggle shinyeyes cat got not just one, but two Unsundered kills, and wasn't bothered at all at the idea of ending these ancient beyond our mortal comprehension lives even if it was a kill-or-be-killed situation.

[Lauront]

I am so glad this thread is making me feel... sane? I resonate so very much with the viewpoints of KizuyaKatogami, Lauront and Rulakir. It's just incredibly comforting to know I'm not alone, especially when talking about a story I was so invested into for the last 5 years. For the past 2 months I feel like my mind has done nothing but incoherently rant about Endwalker, which often felt like screaming into the void. (I wonder how many of us who are vocally disappointed in EW are Ascian fans?)

I have been one since ARR, back when I thought they might go in a more Sith direction for them. I was even more engrossed by SHB when they introduced their ancient history. I've never really cared much for the protagonists in this game. I only really play because I enjoy the Ascians and Garleans, the latter of which I was hoping they'd eventually take in a more Archades-style direction.

Am of the same mind regarding Elidibus, that white-robed Ascian who was supposed to be different from the rest. Then he sort of just took over Lahabrea's role after the breadman died, and Emet-Selch seemed to usurp his role. I'd hoped we would use that power-of-friendship trope to reach out to this man who really was not much different from us, even if he was forced to do some pretty monstrous things in our pov. Why couldn't we weaken him, then use the stones to remind him of who he once was, and have him be an ally of sorts and we'd figure out a way to rejoin without Calamities? This isn't that kind of story, though, unfortunately. But hey, at least the funny cheeseburger earwiggle shinyeyes cat got not just one, but two Unsundered kills, and wasn't bothered at all at the idea of ending these ancient beyond our mortal comprehension lives even if it was a kill-or-be-killed situation.

Yeah, I was also hoping they'd do something in that direction with EW, especially since the shards don't really add much other stars couldn't IMO, and I'm not keen on leaving the Source split... until EW went and killed all the other stars we know of. :`)

[Sicno]

Actually, did anyone else find that dungeon weird? I mean I have no issue with the choice of end boss, if we're gonna die on this Fandaniel hill then let us die on it, but why Livia and Rhitahtyn?? We had Ilberd and Papalymo in a trash pack, and then we saw Moenbryda and Haurchefant. So, then... why not Nabriales and Charibert, right?

I hate that dungeon for that reason. Livia and Rhitatyn, again? How many times can you beat those dead horses? Literally, we've had encounters against some remembrance of them for the last 2 expansions. SB had them in a certain job quest, SHB had them in that instance with Elidibus. It wasn't even that long ago, it was during the patches. They're an overused go-to guilt-trip of the people we've killed. When I stepped in I was expecting Ilberd to be a boss too... and then he's in one of the first trash packs. "Well there goes that".

Btw I slap Minfilia every time I run that dungeon.

[Teraq]

Looking back, I was kind of taken aback at how his personality seemed to change in 5.3 because I had always seen Elidibus is calm and collected compared to Lahabrea and the others. Then I figured maybe we would end up needing to work with him to keep balance because of part of Lahabrea’s speech in the Praetorium. But the way they handled him just seemed so wrong to me.

Honestly same, I mostly coped with it by headcanoning that losing both original Zodiark summoners that were still alive seriously damaged him and drove him to become more desperate.

But mostly I was banking on 5.3 Elidibus being only a "first chapter" to be concluded in the grand finale of this 10-year saga of Hydaelyn and Zodiark.

Uuuuhhhhhhhh yeah

[Lauront]

- I thought this expansion was going to be about Hydaelyn and Zodiark? As it turns out, it's about Hydaelyn and The Sound. Zodiark was literally just an afterthought, a plot device to usher in the real plot. I keep seeing people say that making Zodiark more of a presence at all (or even just a more glorified fight than the level 83 trial, but I digress) would have been "predictable" and that they "subverted expectations", to which I would ask: is "subverting expectations" supposed to be a good thing when you hype something up for years? Does "predictable" have to mean bad and boring rather than a logical and satisfying climax? Perhaps people who argue this simply do not care this much about Zodiark and the Ascians. Fine enough, we all have different opinions on characters, but I just wish the writers did care more.

Something that may have sat better with me and done a better job subverting expectations would have been to see them come together and draw on both their power to ultimately save the world. They also had an excellent opportunity with the origins of the High Seraph from Orbonne for a potential backstory to the sound, considering the traits of this mysterious otherworldly being... I think the theme of despair worked, but it could've been woven better into something like the Creator from IV: The After Years.

- As a conclusion of sorts, I will bring up this anecdote of my reaction to getting the Endsinger in trial roulette: it's undeniably epic and gorgeous, and it feels good as a fight. It feels unambiguously good and awesome, because you are literally kicking the personification of cosmic despair in the face with the power of hope, love, friendship and Calvinball. It's a much more fist-pumping moment than watching a man desperately flail at you because you are using against him the power that broke his world, erased his entire civilisation from History and in-all-but-name killed everyone he knew and loved, then quietly accepts defeat and asks you, the barely-recognisable remnant of his veryveryvery good friend (polite cough), to remember them as he fades away. It's also a much more fist-pumping moment than mercy killing the little brother figure neither you nor he remembers, as he dies remembering all the people that put their faith in him whom he could never save.
It just feels shallow.

I personally hated it. It just felt like a parody fight that was trying way too hard, almost like gcbtw: the trial, especially with her flailing impotently for 35% or so of the fight. At least it suggests dynamis isn't all it's cracked up to be, especially since she had swallowed multiple worlds' worth of despair. But you're right, at least it sits differently because for me, there's zero real regret involved with bringing her low. Just wish her creator could be scrubbed out of the art at the end.

It feels like the story is gaslighting me about Venat and Hermes in particular to sweep under the rug the balanced, shades-of-grey Hydaelyn/Zodiark conflict presented in Shadowbringers to not-so-subtly present Live-Laugh-Love's genocide in a much better light, like the writers are telling me "see? The Ascians didn't have this much of a point, because they were pretty bad and never had any hope against Meteion". We wouldn't want to feel too bad for them after all, would we?

If they thought that'd work, they are very mistaken.

(Just finished your post... it resonates a lot with me in terms of the aspects of EW I disliked...)

[OhNooo]

I've never really cared much for the protagonists in this game. I only really play because I enjoy the Ascians and Garleans, the latter of which I was hoping they'd eventually take in a more Archades-style direction.

It’s like the devs made the other side seem more interesting and engaging to me. So then when I compared them to the company I was forced to travel with, the scions just felt either boring or annoying to me. But I wasn’t just annoyed at the scions…I was also annoyed and disappointed with myself as the WoL/WoD. I just go along with whatever they want me to do and hardly seem to ever question anything. When I *do* question or comment on something I then just shrug it off and keep doing what I’m good at doing which is being a weapon for the protagonist side.

So now the game has taken this group of people (the ascians) that I want to keep learning more about and literally does everything they can to have me kill every last one of them while constantly trying to enforce the message that I had no choice. Then they pretty much hand hold me through the expansion like “this is the message of the expansion. See this person was right all along and you’re on the right side and don’t forget life is meaningless but make sure to have hope and live anyway. Ok let’s wrap up this ascian and hydaelyn/zodiark stuff. Uh and…let’s throw Zenos in for a final fight.”

Yeah no thanks lol

[EaraGrace]

Interrupting the echo chamber rq.

A lot of your post is speculation and headcanon supported by very little. For example, we don’t even know if Venat told the ancients of Meteion. We don’t even entirely know if she told her followers, they just knew that Zodiark wasn’t a permanent solution.

Oh come on. Really? They just happened to agree completely that Zodiark isn’t a perfect solution? Enough to argue against the Convocation? When we have Venat say word for word that she’s going to bring those who can be trusted “into the fold?”

You’re stretching believability for the sake of your own headcanon.

We don’t even know if they knew of the sundering or that they would be sacrificed, as in the Anamnesis cutscene, they only lament the loss of Venat.

They lament her having to be the heart, a job that requires one to remain conscious and able for millennia, as opposed to being asleep. Yes they were sad she had to suffer.

As far as the sundered being more durable than Elidibus or Emet etc. I really not sure how you came to that conclusion. We needed higher up entirety help everytime we fought against them lol. Venat is, in the end, a hypocrite and a liar.

Prove either. Or wait let me guess. You’re gonna post that convo in Heavensward regarding Hydaelyn and Zodiark again aren’t you? And just completely ignore three expansions of context. Yknow what, fine let’s make it a rule that if a character does anything like that scene, we can’t trust their words ever again. Let’s see how many sources of information we have left.

She preaches about suffering and hope, yet she inflicted mass amounts of suffering on her own people and gave up hope on them.

How many times must it be said that she doesn’t distinguish her people and the Unsundered like you do. She describes both the unsundered and the sundered as being humanity.

Her confronting the ancients after the final days already hit means very little. She could have prevented the event altogether.

How.

Instead she kept quiet, lied, and let it all happen from what we’ve seen. She was friends with Emet, an incredibly intelligent individual. You mean to tell me the two of them couldn’t have figured something out? If Hermes is a problem Pandemonium exists for the time being. There were numerous ways she could have gone about it.

Just throw Hermes in Pandaemonium, which is on fire atm, that’ll be great. Surely no problem will emerge when he’s needed to summon Zodiark.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Interrupting the echo chamber rq.



Oh come on. Really? They just happened to agree completely that Zodiark isn’t a perfect solution? Enough to argue against the Convocation? When we have Venat say word for word that she’s going to bring those who can be trusted “into the fold?”

You’re stretching believability for the sake of your own headcanon.



They lament her having to be the heart, a job that requires one to remain conscious and able for millennia, as opposed to being asleep. Yes they were sad she had to suffer.



Prove either. Or wait let me guess. You’re gonna post that convo in Heavensward regarding Hydaelyn and Zodiark again aren’t you? And just completely ignore three expansions of context. Yknow what, fine let’s make it a rule that if a character does anything like that scene, we can’t trust their words ever again. Let’s see how many sources of information we have left.



How many times must it be said that she doesn’t distinguish her people and the Unsundered like you do. She describes both the unsundered and the sundered as being humanity.



How.



Just throw Hermes in Pandaemonium, which is on fire atm, that’ll be great. Surely no problem will emerge when he’s needed to summon Zodiark.

They may not needed to summon Zodiark had she informed them of the threat BEFOREHAND. I’ve already given numerous examples of “how” she could have prevented the event. Considering how much you respond to me i’d assume you have my posts memorized by now, otherwise a brief summary. Tell Emet, a very intelligent man. Start honing their dynamis skills, using the facility that allows them to do just that. Step 3:Profit the end. I'd also like to request we dnot refer to other peoples opinions on the story as an "echo chamber." Seems a bit derogatory.