When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[Vyrerus]

We’ve entered the Venat is “literally the devil” phase of this argument.


Then the word destination is meaningless.

No, the word journey becomes meaningless, because you take from it, its purpose.

More accurately, a group of dissenters led by a woman argued against the path being taken by broader society, and when they didn’t listen sought to ensure the future wouldn’t be doomed by their decision. They then dedicated their lives to protecting and fostering this life.

That's a weird way to say formed a rebellion and lead a coup by creating a second god, which then destroyed their world and way of life, but whatever helps you remove all moral complexity from your crystal mommy.

And yet it’s those selfsame common people that we continuously fight beside at their own peril.

Who was it that we supported in Ishgard?

Who did we lend our strength too in Ala Mhigo and Doma?

And who was it robbing the free will of the survivors in Norvrandt? Wasn’t the Scions I don’t believe.

Say what will, but the Scions and WoL repeatedly respected the right of self governance, only intervening to prevent an imminent harm or to free a populace from a oppression. Even the Garleans came to recognize that.

Ishgard: Two of four aristocratic houses and the papacy at first, until we killed Nidhogg. Then the same aristocratic houses, one branch of the military, and the commoners with Hilda to dismantle the papacy. We fought beside largely the ruling class, and did not actually elevate commoners to equality or rulership posititions.

Ala Mhigo: The Ala Mhigan resistance movement comprised of any Ala Mhigans willing to fight. Which was a leadership movement going against Garlean rule. While comprised of anyone, it's what constituted formal rule for our purposes, and would later give leadership based on bloodline and prior importance ala Lyse and Raubahn. It is the best example you can provide against my PoV though. And my favorite nation, as such.

Doma: Lord Hien and the royalist freedom fighters awaiting his return. Yes, we roused bodies to serve him, but we served literal royalty there too, not first but foremost once he was found.

Norvrandt: I'll answer your question after I ask some. Who made the Crystarium? Who used strength of spell to change fate? What could any of the common people done for themselves without that great man?
Vauthry eventually robbed people of their free will through meol distribution implanting bits of Sin Eater in them, but until that point in the story, the common folk themselves flocked to Eulmore for want of a strong ruler with a safe place to live. Much as those who flocked to the Crystarium did.

If the moral of the story you got from playing 14 is to wait for a hero then I’m not sure we’re playing the same game.



Believing humanity shouldn’t choose for all life to walk off a cliff doesn’t mean you don’t believe they should have a choice. If you want to say there’s conflict between respecting the individual and protecting the collective then sure, but that’s evidence that Venats human, not that she’s the “Great Woman.”

We're not looking at it the same way. That's been abundantly clear for weeks. It is the same game. The difference between us is that I am willing to extend my perception to its fullest. You are not.

Funny, though, you know. Waiting for a hero is exactly what the savior goddess did. For 12,000 years.

There's a difference in fully informing people so they can make an actual choice, and them still making the wrong one than giving them vague platitudes in a time of crisis, and then literally conquering them through strength of arms to take their will from them. Because they literally couldn't give you the answer you wanted with the knowledge they had in their moment of weakness.

[EaraGrace]

No, the word journey becomes meaningless, because you take from it, its purpose.

When Bilbo yelled out “I’m going on an adventure” do you think he was making the term meaningless?

No That's a weird way to say formed a rebellion and lead a coup by creating a second god, which then destroyed their world and way of life, but whatever helps you remove all moral complexity from your crystal mommy.

God can we have one conversation on Venat without it turning into a group of people turning into snobs. Pull it back mister good faith. And yes, all those things were the right call. Was it good, was it kind, was it fun? No. Was it the only way? Yes.

No Ishgard: Two of four aristocratic houses and the papacy at first, until we killed Nidhogg. Then the same aristocratic houses, one branch of the military, and the commoners with Hilda to dismantle the papacy. We fought beside largely the ruling class, and did not actually elevate commoners to equality or rulership posititions.

The leaders of the Brume disagree. Ask Hilda if she wasn’t happy we came or if she wouldn’t fight with us again. Ask the House of Commons. Ask the Lords that repeatedly sought our deaths.

No Ala Mhigo: The Ala Mhigan resistance movement comprised of any Ala Mhigans willing to fight. Which was a leadership movement going against Garlean rule. While comprised of anyone, it's what constituted formal rule for our purposes, and would later give leadership based on bloodline and prior importance ala Lyse and Raubahn. It is the best example you can provide against my PoV though. And my favorite nation, as such.

I’m glad we agree.

No Doma: Lord Hien and the royalist freedom fighters awaiting his return. Yes, we roused bodies to serve him, but we served literal royalty there too, not first but foremost once he was found.

A royalty supported by the common people. Doma answered Hiens call.

No Norvrandt: I'll answer your question after I ask some. Who made the Crystarium? Who used strength of spell to change fate? What could any of the common people done for themselves without that great man?

The common people fought and fought and fought. It was the common soldiers that gave Ardbert hope and helped us drive back the sin eaters from Lakeland. It was a the common people of the 8th Umbral Era who gave Graha the chance to make a change. It was Lyna and the people of the Crystarium, Nuzz and the people of Eulmore, the miners and engineers in Twine, the Nights Blessed and the Viis, the fae and the dwarves who time and time again fought alongside us. Without them the First would’ve fallen.

No Vauthry eventually robbed people of their free will through meol distribution implanting bits of Sin Eater in them, but until that point in the story, the common folk themselves flocked to Eulmore for want of a strong ruler with a safe place to live. Much as those who flocked to the Crystarium did.

The people of Eulmore and Kholusia suffered for it. Now both peoples lead their own fates and flourish.

No We're not looking at it the same way. That's been abundantly clear for weeks. It is the same game. The difference between us is that I am willing to extend my perception to its fullest. You are not.

How easy it must be to think that our difference of opinion is rooted in my “limited perception.” We are both seeing the same things Vyrerus, accept that.

No Funny, though, you know. Waiting for a hero is exactly what the savior goddess did. For 12,000 years.

Funny. That doesn’t sound like something a “Great Woman” would do.

No There's a difference in fully informing people so they can make an actual choice, and them still making the wrong one than giving them vague platitudes in a time of crisis, and then literally conquering them through strength of arms to take their will from them. Because they literally couldn't give you the answer you wanted with the knowledge they had in their moment of weakness.

A moment of weakness made eternal. Zodiark would prevent any and all from choosing the hard way, and in so doing doom life.

[Vyrerus]

How easy it must be to think that our difference of opinion is rooted in my “limited perception.” We are both seeing the same things Vyrerus, accept that.

Confounding and difficult, actually. I did not say that your perception is limited, only that you choose to limit it. Perhaps, choose to express a limited portion of it would be a better way to put it. It's confounding, because I know most everyone here is bright. Some more than me. I know we have different eyes and hearts, so the story makes us feel different things. Different things catch our differing eyes first, too.

But I don't think anyone has bad vision, in terms of looking at the story. I do think you, and others, do not care to look beyond what pleases you with regards to characters and their stories. I don't understand why or how.

I don't focus on the rosy parts of the story when I post, because the story already focused on them. Hoping I wouldn't think too hard about all of it. Sometimes, I wish I ruminated less over it, but that's not me.

[Pofruin]

Confounding and difficult, actually. I did not say that your perception is limited, only that you choose to limit it. Perhaps, choose to express a limited portion of it would be a better way to put it. It's confounding, because I know most everyone here is bright. Some more than me. I know we have different eyes and hearts, so the story makes us feel different things. Different things catch our differing eyes first, too.

But I don't think anyone has bad vision, in terms of looking at the story. I do think you, and others, do not care to look beyond what pleases you with regards to characters and their stories. I don't understand why or how.

I don't focus on the rosy parts of the story when I post, because the story already focused on them. Hoping I wouldn't think too hard about all of it. Sometimes, I wish I ruminated less over it, but that's not me.

Why did you start "bad faith argument" Thread if you also post posts like this?

[Cleretic]

Why did you start "bad faith argument" Thread if you also post posts like this?

Because he was accused of them.

I should know; I was the one that said it.

[Vyrerus]

Why did you start "bad faith argument" Thread if you also post posts like this?

Why did everyone who read that thread expect me to be an exemplar for them, without analyzing themselves? The onus is not entirely on me to make hospitable posts 24/7 and somehow change the forum, especially when I've been insulted too. I think it took only a week for someone to try to leverage my creation of that thread against me in an argument, because I responded in kind to someone who put me down. You can believe I'm a hypocrite or double minded or whatever you want, but just because I espoused the desire for the forum to be better doesn't mean I'll sit and take insults, insinuated or otherwise. It also doesn't mean that I'm perfect. Part of the reason that I created that thread, was that people from the forum who communicate with me outside of the forum told me I wasn't considered a problem poster. I wanted to see if it was true, and I also wanted to see what people thought constituted bad faith.

In the end, I didn't learn very much, other than there's a lot of old grudges in this sub forum. There's almost no introspective posters here. Most people here believe they aren't part of the problem, and do little in the way of offering solutions to stop arguments/derailment. I try and I fail. I'm sure I'm a laughingstock. But I am earnest, and I am open.

[Pofruin]

Why did everyone who read that thread expect me to be an exemplar for them, without analyzing themselves? The onus is not entirely on me to make hospitable posts 24/7 and somehow change the forum, especially when I've been insulted too. I think it took only a week for someone to try to leverage my creation of that thread against me in an argument, because I responded in kind to someone who put me down. You can believe I'm a hypocrite or double minded or whatever you want, but just because I espoused the desire for the forum to be better doesn't mean I'll sit and take insults, insinuated or otherwise. It also doesn't mean that I'm perfect. Part of the reason that I created that thread, was that people from the forum who communicate with me outside of the forum told me I wasn't considered a problem poster. I wanted to see if it was true, and I also wanted to see what people thought constituted bad faith.

In the end, I didn't learn very much, other than there's a lot of old grudges in this sub forum. There's almost no introspective posters here. Most people here believe they aren't part of the problem, and do little in the way of offering solutions to stop arguments/derailment. I try and I fail. I'm sure I'm a laughingstock. But I am earnest, and I am open.

It appears that some amount of apologies is in order. My point was that creation of bad faith thread indicated desire for more fruitful and civil discussion. While quoted post contains nearly exclusively condescension towards other poster. This causes dissonance to me. Nevertheless it is unfair to pile the overall forums bad dynamis on you. The snarling roars of Blasphemies affect as all and sometimes we ourself are the snarling beasts. Thankfully in our case transformations are not final.

To answer the both points of this of discussions and Op of the thread. The Fighting never ends. Not while we live. In game lore death is merely setback due to lifestream. So until heat death of the Universe. And even then it's on assumptions that Ea are correct and it's is the end and after it happens nothing else WILL. Perhaps its Hope speaking but it seemed to me that once they got their result they stopped research of further happenings and put all their efforts into attempt to find the way to prevent it. Perhaps there is nothing to prevent. The universe will end. The next will begin :P.

[TaleraRistain]

We're not looking at it the same way. That's been abundantly clear for weeks. It is the same game. The difference between us is that I am willing to extend my perception to its fullest. You are not..

Vryreus, I really don't think you can make this claim. You only espouse one interpretation of Venat's actions, that what she did destroyed and ruined things. You do not acknowledge the possibility that her actions brought about something essential that was missing. You can't fault someone for their viewpoint and look down your nose at them that they don't have your depth of perception when you don't show it yourself.

[Vyrerus]

Well, this is going to be some sorta backread. Whooo boy.

you don't show it yourself.

I see why you might think that, but I'm not one of the people just rallying behind what's already explicit in the game. I.E. In plain sight. I'm also not condescending to anyone. I believe most people on this forum have just as much and more to their perception than I do. But I also know that they aren't making use of it.

But even if I were, I've been looked down on plenty here. In order for your riff on me to have any meaning, the people you think I'm looking down on would have had to have not looked down on me for the past month and more. There are many responses to my past posts that I did not bother to respond to, because there was no way to do so without giving into anger.