When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[KariTheFox]

According to Venat we must all suffer. Cause being happy all the time is bad.

Now some people say, well why not minor suffering? If the little joys can help overcome great tragedy, than mild inconveniences can make us appreciate the great things we have. (See losing power or internet for an hour or so).

But NOPE. Venat is all like "You will die, have disease, be tortured in ENDLESS CONFLICT MUAHAHAHAHAHA! Also I'm the good guy!"

When you typed all that, did at any point it occur to you that it might have been a complete misrepresentation of both Venat as a character and the intended message and themes of Endwalker?

[Gemina]

When you typed all that, did at any point it occur to you that it might have been a complete misrepresentation of both Venat as a character and the intended message and themes of Endwalker?

It's not too tough to come to that conclusion though. Her mindset isn't far off from Emet's, or those who blame Eve from the old testament in Christianity for mankind's suffering. Venat and the sundering definitely gave off some strong Eve and the Garden of Eden vibes for sure.

[Slatersev]

Its not hard to understand, its also not hard to see how its different.

The Ironworks and co never expected to directly benefit from there work. At best they thought it would erase them from existence. They were never going to get to go back and in the case of the later generations never got to experience a better world in the first place.

In that sense there goal was similar to the first Ancient sacrifices, the ones to save the world and there people.

But thats where the similarities end, because the other Ancients decided to keep going. They wanted to live, for everyone who died to come back and to continue there lives exactly as they were before. Even if it meant sacrificing other living being who had no say in the matter, they would do it for there comfort.

That's the difference, in no scenario did the Ironworks expect to actually get anything out of what they were doing. It was all for the benefit of others.

There was no paradise for them to return to, there labors and sacrifices were never going to be rewarded as far as they knew, they weren't going to be able to live lives of bliss with all the people they lost back with them and they knew that.

[Absimiliard]

There's a pretty significant difference between being lead astray and acting while having all the facts. The former would be Eve, while the latter would be Venat. One is far more egregious than the other.

[KariTheFox]

It's interesting that Eve is brought up, since the Eden story is a kind of theodicy to explain why evil and suffering exists in the world at all; in Eve's case, it's because a woman was led astray and disobeyed god.

But Venat isn't really meant to be responsible for the existence of suffering, suffering is an extant part of life, she does not say people 'should' suffer as some kind of moral imperative or punishment for their sins, she is saying that they already do, and that they should acknowledge it. I wonder if part of this tension comes from a western audience trying reckon with a very Buddhist view of the nature of suffering that Endwalker presents.

[Veloran]

I wonder if part of this tension comes from a western audience trying reckon with a very Buddhist view of the nature of suffering that Endwalker presents.

Except the ultimate goal of Buddhism is to escape the cycle of suffering and reincarnation through the attainment of Nirvana and the renunciation of all earthly ties. In other words the exact opposite of the idea Venat represents.

[Necrotica]

Except the ultimate goal of Buddhism is to escape the cycle of suffering and reincarnation through the attainment of Nirvana and the renunciation of all earthly ties. In other words the exact opposite of the idea Venat represents.

Venat has taken the position that achieving Nirvana would be to give up on life and seek death. She bought into Meteion's message. Since ONE planet achieved ultimate happiness with no suffering, then wanted to die, clearly EVERYONE EVER would be the same way. There is no way people on different planets with different biology and psychology would ever think differently from each other.

Venat/Hydaelyn, if left in power would forcibly maintain a cycle of death and suffering because she knows best. She might as well be Satan.

[YianKutku]

Venat has taken the position that achieving Nirvana would be to give up on life and seek death.

She never said that.

She said achieving paradise through shortcuts would lead people astray.

Which has been demonstrated by the Ancient Amaurotines.

[Veloran]

She said achieving paradise through shortcuts would lead people astray.

Which has been demonstrated by the Ancient Amaurotines.

Being born with a natural ability for something is "taking a shortcut"...?

[Slatersev]

Venat has taken the position that achieving Nirvana would be to give up on life and seek death. She bought into Meteion's message. Since ONE planet achieved ultimate happiness with no suffering, then wanted to die, clearly EVERYONE EVER would be the same way. There is no way people on different planets with different biology and psychology would ever think differently from each other.

Venat/Hydaelyn, if left in power would forcibly maintain a cycle of death and suffering because she knows best. She might as well be Satan.

Last time I checked, Satan's endgame isnt literally dying so people are free to choose there own future unobstructed by the past. It's what makes so many of the claims about Venat weird.

Somebody who wants to be a "Supreme deity" but who has barely any followers as most people worship the 12 or something else. Who fully intended to die if and when the Sundered had champions capable of it.

She never said that.

She said achieving paradise through shortcuts would lead people astray.

Which has been demonstrated by the Ancient Amaurotines.

Its pointing out that the Ancients "perfect" paradise at that point would be built on ignoring that things already aren't perfect in the first place. And that as good at things were, they were never perfect.

She never argues that they should just give up and die, or that living a long near immortal life is bad. Just that you can't plug your hands in your ears and pretend everything is perfect when its not. That if a "Paradise" requires pretending a problem just doesn't exist, then its not a Paradise.