Current top 100th percentile on P1S since 6.08 buffs

[Aikaal]

I think we should wait around 2 months so most top players have bis gear. Jobs without support usually perform better during first weeks. If you wanna have full use of raidbuffs, whole party need perform well. Thats why Sage may perform pretty well compared to something like astro during first weeks, but once optimization start, I don't believe Sage can compete against astro anymore.

To begin with, I don't think SAG as a barrier healer would fight against a pure healer for a spot.

We can assume 6.1 will come about that time and in certain situations, like RDM vs SMN DPS. There are pretty close so you can't really tell. That said, there are some clear anomalies. BLM t=doing 7% more than other casters. Top DPS being 12% above to worst.

It's normal that MCH, BLM and SAM are above other jobs pDPS wise.

1 - It completely ignores the buff you bring.
For example, DNC dance and the buff it gives to teammates? Ignored.
Songs by BRD? Ignored.

Using money, if you have 100€ in your pocket but lended 20€ to each teammates, pDPS would still consider you have 100€.

2 - It also ignores the buffs.
For example, you're getting buffed by DNC, you deal 13k DPS. That's your personal DPS.
Example 2, you're not getting buffed by DNC, you deal 10k DPS. pDPS doesn't care, that's still your personal DPS.

Using money again, you have 250€ but borrowed 100€ from each teammates. pDPS ignores what you ower and still consider you have 250€.

I do think "selfish" shouldnt mean they must do the top DPS. "selfish" means the provide no raid buff. They, however, enable raid buffs to be stronger and rDPS properly tax their share so it's fine. There are merits to say not to bring SAM+BLM+MCH in the same party but I honestly feel like it fill the flex spot just fine.

[Kolsykol]

Imo the general idea should be that DPS with DPS utility should be slightly ahead in rDPS if everything goes perfectly, otherwise what exactly is the point?
Now...
It's not going to go perfectly.
But what I mean is that you should feel like the DPS utility potential scales to a point where taking NIN for example is an actual compelling idea while taking pure DPS is just an all-around safer bet.
A NIN in the party should make you go '' okay time to put my game face on '' and make you try harder because you want to take advantage of that extra potential.

Now that MNK is clearly top tier DPS I rly think they should drop the whole '' personal DPS with semi utility '', just have a more clearly defined focus and cleaner design.
They can still have defensive utility but DPS utility should be left to the utility DPS imo ( also double damage buffs just feels awkward on MNK imo ).
Brotherhood and Arcane Circle could still work the same way they do right now even without the damage buff they'd still be useful.
They don't even need it.
I don't really see the point of them having a party-wide damage buff built into them too.

It's like wow you've got the highest personal DPS AND damage utility?
How is that fair to DPS that are meant to be about utility?
Or even SAM.

Stuff like removing TP and making enmity more streamlined has definitely hurt a lot of Jobs, I am not against those changes especially the TP removal.
But back in the day NIN brought significantly more to the table and it feels like they got stuck in the middle of the road like they just removed half and left it at that without adapting.
It's the same with MCH too, their TP and MP regen actually used to be important and they never really adapted to their new position after it was removed.

[Sunako]

To begin with, I don't think SAG as a barrier healer would fight against a pure healer for a spot.

Actually Sch/Sage is more than viable, but that was not the point of discussion

I mean jobs like WHM/SAGE/TANKS/BLM/SAM are independent to party performance while jobs like AST/NIN/DNC are heavily dependant on party performance. Dancer average dps was always lower in SHB too than other ranged, but in optimized settings they easily surpassed others because party dps heavily impact their own raid dps numbers. During first weeks people are still not optimizing much before everybody have bis gear. Thats why gearing up pure dps is more overall dps to the party and Black Mages may look stronger than they currently are. If Black Mage would not get buffed, RDM could surpass their dps with optimized settings(or be very close to it). I think that already happened before savage released. Current buff just guarantee their spot into speedkilling. I think it is okey because they do not offer anything to the party except damage.

[Raikai]

Black Mage and Samurai deserve to be the top 2's because they don't bring anything else to the table other than their personal damage.
Said that, of that "lower dps tier" starting from DNC downwards, MCH should be at that top, given it's the selfish dpser of that niche.

I don't see anything wrong with the 6.0.8 buffs other than MNK being unecessary and MCH being lackluster.

[Awkward]

Black Mage and Samurai deserve to be the top 2's because they don't bring anything else to the table other than their personal damage.
Said that, of that "lower dps tier" starting from DNC downwards, MCH should be at that top, given it's the selfish dpser of that niche.

I don't see anything wrong with the 6.0.8 buffs other than MNK being unecessary and MCH being lackluster.

Yes, in personal DPS, which they already were and always have been. And this silly argument gets paraded around as if fact when no DPS jobs bring anything _substantial_ EXCEPT damage, whether that comes from your DPS or your lazy 3-5% copy paste raid buff it's all the same. Right now SAM and BLM are so strong they're crushing raid buff jobs without a raid buff in raid dps despite not having one by the sheer fact they do such an alarmingly broken amount of damage that even after subtracted all that they put into the buffs and giving nothing back they are STILL coming out ahead. Tell me, why would you bring anything else if you're a raid buff job except the jobs that will contribute by far the most amount of DPS to your raid buffs? Simply bringing them is giving teams 2k+ more TOTAL dps vs anything else in their role, it's amazingly imbalanced and the """balance team""" should honestly be ashamed. Go explore the DPS charts and metrics and tell me how this is balanced, because in sheer percent between top and bottom and everything in between this is the worst the balance has been since 5.0 if not even worse. What a god awful patch this was.

[Kazimere]

It's normal that MCH, BLM and SAM are above other jobs pDPS wise.

1 - It completely ignores the buff you bring.
For example, DNC dance and the buff it gives to teammates? Ignored.
Songs by BRD? Ignored.

Using money, if you have 100€ in your pocket but lended 20€ to each teammates, pDPS would still consider you have 100€.

2 - It also ignores the buffs.
For example, you're getting buffed by DNC, you deal 13k DPS. That's your personal DPS.
Example 2, you're not getting buffed by DNC, you deal 10k DPS. pDPS doesn't care, that's still your personal DPS.

Using money again, you have 250€ but borrowed 100€ from each teammates. pDPS ignores what you ower and still consider you have 250€.

I’m aware of how it works. Within its role, MCH crushes Bard and Dancer. Crushes them. So, outside of optimized groups, MCH isn’t a bad job to pick. Could MCH do more damage? Sure, but what is the number? Phys range suffer no penalties. None. I don’t want to hear about RDM or BLM having tools that allow for them to be mobile. Those tools are pretty much on CD at all times.

At this point, MCH just needs to provide the same support as Bard/ Dancer.

[Kazimere]

Yes, in personal DPS, which they already were and always have been. And this silly argument gets paraded around as if fact when no DPS jobs bring anything _substantial_ EXCEPT damage, whether that comes from your DPS or your lazy 3-5% copy paste raid buff it's all the same. Right now SAM and BLM are so strong they're crushing raid buff jobs without a raid buff in raid dps despite not having one by the sheer fact they do such an alarmingly broken amount of damage that even after subtracted all that they put into the buffs and giving nothing back they are STILL coming out ahead. Tell me, why would you bring anything else if you're a raid buff job except the jobs that will contribute by far the most amount of DPS to your raid buffs? Simply bringing them is giving teams 2k+ more TOTAL dps vs anything else in their role, it's amazingly imbalanced and the """balance team""" should honestly be ashamed. Go explore the DPS charts and metrics and tell me how this is balanced, because in sheer percent between top and bottom and everything in between this is the worst the balance has been since 5.0 if not even worse. What a god awful patch this was.

No they aren’t. Monk and Reaper are beating them in RDPS. However, BLM and Samurai are beating them in aDPS.

[CKNovel]

I’m aware of how it works. Within its role, MCH crushes Bard and Dancer. Crushes them. So, outside of optimized groups, MCH isn’t a bad job to pick. Could MCH do more damage? Sure, but what is the number? Phys range suffer no penalties. None. I don’t want to hear about RDM or BLM having tools that allow for them to be mobile. Those tools are pretty much on CD at all times.

At this point, MCH just needs to provide the same support as Bard/ Dancer.

By that logic, this applies to BLM and SAM.
But again, is it the MCH fault that others are not playing well? Should you punish a MCH because of its poor choice of teammates?
"They suffer no penalty", no job suffers penalty. Don't even think of BLM, that amount of mobility is ridiculous. Melees? Pretty please, you have uptime 95%+ of the time, you will lose a grand maximum of 10 GCDs.

Plus remind yourself that BRD was already ahead of MCH when people were progging, therefore not optimized at all.


MCH doesn't have any utility, it should be much higher.
Or give it utility, but you would still need to buff its DPS. It remains a joke right now.

[Aiscence]

Black Mage and Samurai deserve to be the top 2's because they don't bring anything else to the table other than their personal damage.
Said that, of that "lower dps tier" starting from DNC downwards, MCH should be at that top, given it's the selfish dpser of that niche.

I don't see anything wrong with the 6.0.8 buffs other than MNK being unecessary and MCH being lackluster.

Oh so if mch should only be at the top of "physical ranged", then BLM should only be at the top of the casters, and not beating the melees, seems logical to me.

I’m aware of how it works. Within its role, MCH crushes Bard and Dancer. Crushes them. So, outside of optimized groups, MCH isn’t a bad job to pick. Could MCH do more damage? Sure, but what is the number? Phys range suffer no penalties. None. I don’t want to hear about RDM or BLM having tools that allow for them to be mobile. Those tools are pretty much on CD at all times.

At this point, MCH just needs to provide the same support as Bard/ Dancer.

The problem with that argument is that if day one a caster or a melee is already beating widely a mch: there's no point. On top of that, if you look at all the fights this tier: they have a gigantic hitbox or no positional even for p2s. The only fight with a "smaller" hitbox (and it's already big) is p4sp1 and there's one case that forces the disconnect? There's mostly no more positionals and even if you don't do any you'll still crush pranged and that is without the fact you could true north most of them. For a caster? Yeah the things are on cd ... but nothing prevents you to delay to use them for movement, if i'm spending 90% of my time on a savage fight on the ass of a boss, there's no reason to have that tax. "yeah but they have to plan so it's harder than a pranged", man every job have to plan on where to put their addle, tactician, swiftcast and stuff, that's no different.

[Awkward]

No they aren’t. Monk and Reaper are beating them in RDPS. However, BLM and Samurai are beating them in aDPS.

Only over a span of 2 weeks(prior to patch buffs), BLM is beating everything except MNK(another broken job) in rdps and samurai is virtually tied if not ahead of the other melee at max percentile. Either way, it is way too close for the amount of damage they do in rdps and needs a dramatic nerf, so the rest of my point stands. Only using rdps as a metric and acting like the rest of the dps just disappears into the void is a habit this community needs to break, it shouldn't even be the default metric and was only made that way due to DNC pad. Reaper is looking incredibly rough atm, while they didn't nerf it(they never even needed to) they managed to make the balance 10x worse than 6.05 when everyone was whining about reaper anyway. The fact more people aren't up in arms about the current state of BLM and SAM belies an ignorance of how DPS measurements and DPS itself work in this game honestly. The fact even the people in charge of balancing it seem to mess this up is honestly frightening. As of now the balance is actually better in WoW, just a tremendous miss all around.