The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

[Layte_Aeon]

snip

If I remember rightly the argument she gives against telling the convocation is that Hermes is liable to find out. As one of the few scholars on Celestial aether and a handful of those with even a passing knowledge of dynamis, if the truth made it to him he would likely either become useless or actively impede any solution to the final days. Also a lot of what we see dynamis is capable of doing, aether can do similarly enough, the few big differences being not really seen as worth consideration if the general reaction to the Elpis flowers are any indication.

As for Ala Mhigo and Ishgard, a big part of their stories is that they can't go back to the way things were, and shouldn't: Ala Mhigo can't be a monarchy again, because it would take just one Theodric and they'd be back at square one, hence why they start discussing how they should govern now in 4.1.

Ishgard persues peace not for the sake of returning to the past, but because the Dragonsong war benefited no one, and so they began to change for this new future, even if may look superfically like something in the past, and even if those currently living might not truly see the end result.

But the ancients after the final days did truly hope to not just return to a sense of normalcy, but to act as if their tragedy never happened, sacrificing new life that arose after Zodiark's second invocation to restore those who died to create and empower him so that they may resume their stewardship of the star... their perfect paradise as one ancient called it.

[vehere]

If I remember rightly the argument she gives against telling the convocation is that Hermes is liable to find out. As one of the few scholars on Celestial aether and a handful of those with even a passing knowledge of dynamis, if the truth made it to him he would likely either become useless or actively impede any solution to the final days.

Hermes erased his own memories though, Venat's a smart woman she doesn't need to go "Hey Hermes remember when you erased your memories after sending the Meteia out to cause our world to self destruct?" She could have found a more conductive way to guide the Convocation into investigating the true source of the cause of the Final Days. They started disregarding her because she refused to open her heart to them and apparently wouldn't tell them anything besides insisting they were wrong to do what they were doing, but offered no way to solve things, and they sensed she was hiding something from them.

As for Ala Mhigo and Ishgard, a big part of their stories is that they can't go back to the way things were, and shouldn't: Ala Mhigo can't be a monarchy again, because it would take just one Theodric and they'd be back at square one, hence why they start discussing how they should govern now in 4.1.

Ishgard persues peace not for the sake of returning to the past, but because the Dragonsong war benefited no one, and so they began to change for this new future, even if may look superfically like something in the past, and even if those currently living might not truly see the end result.

They are specifically using the past as their inspiration for a better future. They aren't disregarding the truth that Man and Dragon once lived together. They, including dragons, are hoping that these times will return again. Ala Mhigans still wanted to return home and did not accept they had lost it. They did not want to build a better future elsewhere, they wanted to build a 'better future' in Ala Mhigo. They still clung to their past.

But the ancients after the final days did truly hope to not just return to a sense of normalcy, but to act as if their tragedy never happened

There's absolutely no indication that it would have returned to normal. Just as Ala Mhigans hope for a better future where the pain of Garlemald's invasion will be forgotten, so did the Ancients work. But we know that the invasion will not be forgotten, and we know that the Ancients would not be able to forget the catastrophe. They in fact had no time to really recover and come to this realization because Venat's group started the Sundering, so all we have are the recordings of what ghosts say and Emet-Selch's weird "yeah Venat was right the entire time, we never would have won", even though the Convocation was working with not even half the information Venat had and purposefully withheld from everyone (including her own followers).

[Cleretic]

Hermes erased his own memories though, Venat's a smart woman she doesn't need to go "Hey Hermes remember when you erased your memories after sending the Meteia out to cause our world to self destruct?" She could have found a more conductive way to guide the Convocation into investigating the true source of the cause of the Final Days. They started disregarding her because she refused to open her heart to them and apparently wouldn't tell them anything besides insisting they were wrong to do what they were doing, but offered no way to solve things, and they sensed she was hiding something from them.

Hermes is also a smart person, though, if you give him enough clues he'll figure it out and fall into either useless depression or outright switch sides. And if you tell the Convocation to look into the thing out in space sending dynamis waves to murderize the planet, eventually Hermes will draw the connection to the fleet of dynamis-capable creatures he sent out into space and never heard back from after Kairos freaked out, and go look into that. And given he's needed for putting together Zodiark, that's a big problem.

And that's putting aside the notion that the Convocation probably aren't going to keep any secret you tell them, anyway. Emet-Selch is both the most likely person to listen, and the most likely to tell Hermes, because he's such a stickler for the rules that it caused this whole mess in the first place.

[EaraGrace]

Hermes erased his own memories though, Venat's a smart woman she doesn't need to go "Hey Hermes remember when you erased your memories after sending the Meteia out to cause our world to self destruct?" She could have found a more conductive way to guide the Convocation into investigating the true source of the cause of the Final Days. They started disregarding her because she refused to open her heart to them and apparently wouldn't tell them anything besides insisting they were wrong to do what they were doing, but offered no way to solve things, and they sensed she was hiding something from them.

I’m not sure if they’ve ever stated that they’re reason for rejecting her was because they could tell she was hiding something. In fact, since the Convocation was divided after Venats faction began making its arguments, we actually have reason to believe that her method was working until Elidibus returned.

The problem with telling the Convocation anything of substance is that showing, in any way, that she possessed special knowledge of the threat behind the Final Days raises the question of how she came to know what she knew. The questions that would inevitably result would either require her to openly show she’s not willing to discuss details or would mean divulging details of Elpis and Meteion, both of which would be very dangerous topics to openly discuss given Hermes’ role in Zodiarks creation and his role on the Convocation. Then there’s the general issue of the implications of Meteions conclusion, born as it was from her expedition. If the world found out right after suffering the trauma of the Final Days that the being responsible, that they could not kill, was sitting in a place far beyond their current reach, building a “nest” out of the dying desires of every other known species, some more advanced and prosperous than even Amaurot, the situation would (as she again states) “spiral out of control.”

There's absolutely no indication that it would have returned to normal. Just as Ala Mhigans hope for a better future where the pain of Garlemald's invasion will be forgotten, so did the Ancients work. But we know that the invasion will not be forgotten, and we know that the Ancients would not be able to forget the catastrophe.

Ehhhhhh.

They in fact had no time to really recover and come to this realization because Venat's group started the Sundering, so all we have are the recordings of what ghosts say and Emet-Selch's weird "yeah Venat was right the entire time, we never would have won", even though the Convocation was working with not even half the information Venat had and purposefully withheld from everyone (including her own followers).

I would love a clear timeline of events I will admit.

On Venats followers not knowing, I am once again not sure where this is coming from. Based on the recording at Anyder they knew that Zodiark did not solve the Final Days, a fact that only makes sense if one knows of Meteion. Is there evidence showing this is not the case?

[vehere]

I would love a clear timeline of events I will admit.

On Venats followers not knowing, I am once again not sure where this is coming from. Based on the recording at Anyder they knew that Zodiark did not solve the Final Days, a fact that only makes sense if one knows of Meteion. Is there evidence showing this is not the case?

How would knowing of Meteion make things make sense when they still agreed to the Sundering and leave everything up to the gamble that some person in the future will solve the problem? There was absolutely no mention of Meteion or that "there's a mysterious energy coming from outer space coming from a bird girl making our powers go nuts" in Anyder. It's very clear that they only knew it to be something coming from within the ground, that somehow the aether was weakening. The recording at Anyder shows not that they don't believe Zodiark hasn't fixing things but that they think the effort to return to normal isn't right at the expense of other life.

And even if they did know, then the Convocation would have found out too, wouldn't they? Unless you're suggesting Venat told her group to not tell the Convocation about Meteion's existence so they could do the Sundering unimpeded?

Because if they did know, and if they did decide that trying to pursue Meteion was just too hard for them, then they're just as bad as the Convocation. Giving up so that someone else will hopefully fix the problems.

Hermes was nuts and Lahabrea ain't looking super sane so far, 50% of the Convocation that we know about had a few screws loose.

I think people seriously overestimate how resilient the Ancients were. Hermes was already spiralling a bit from having to put rabid dogs down, he totally flipped when his experiment didn't pan out how he hoped, and no-one seemed to pick up on how unstable he was and he was made a member of the governing body of their society.

And if we go with the whole 'Hermes wasn't the only person who could make Meteia/knows about dynamis' thing, then any Ancient that doesn't take the news too well could potentially start making the problem worse.

I mean... we have Edda and Thordin and Ala Mhigo's old king, Zenos, there's others... if we're judging a faction based on how many unstable folk are in it, we aren't looking too good ourselves. This isn't getting into how many people turned into Blasphemies because they were (like Hermes) at the depths of their despair, anger, or sorrow.

[Jandor]

I mean... we have Edda and Thordin and Ala Mhigo's old king, Zenos, there's others... if we're judging a faction based on how many unstable folk are in it, we aren't looking too good ourselves. This isn't getting into how many people turned into Blasphemies because they were (like Hermes) at the depths of their despair, anger, or sorrow.

Yeah we don't do much better, I doubt that had much bearing on Venat's decision to not tell the Convocation about Meteion though.

Our unstable folk don't threaten all life in the Universe either, we can afford to be a little unstable.

[EaraGrace]

How would knowing of Meteion make things make sense when they still agreed to the Sundering and leave everything up to the gamble that some person in the future will solve the problem?

Explaining the events of Elpis does not mean leaving everything to a gamble. Hydaelyn would still be an active presence helping to lead those willing to “fight for the morrow” towards Meteion. And Venat made clear before we left Elpis that she isn’t just hoping we turn up, but will be actively fighting for the best outcome in all possible situations.





[QUOTE=vehere;5828727] There was absolutely no mention of Meteion or that "there's a mysterious energy coming from outer space coming from a bird girl making our powers go nuts" in Anyder.[QUOTE]

It was a millennia old recording buried under the sea. It’s not going to be comprehensive.

It's very clear that they only knew it to be something coming from within the ground, that somehow the aether was weakening. The recording at Anyder shows not that they don't believe Zodiark hasn't fixing things but that they think the effort to return to normal isn't right at the expense of other life.

That’s not what the recording shows though, they don’t mention the sacrifice at all in that conversation.

And even if they did know, then the Convocation would have found out too, wouldn't they? Unless you're suggesting Venat told her group to not tell the Convocation about Meteion's existence so they could do the Sundering unimpeded?

The Sundering certainly didn’t go unimpeded, the battle between Hydaelyn and Zodiark raged for some time before the desperate final blow was struck. And yes I do believe she told them why she thinks they shouldn’t tell the Convocation, for the very same reasons she herself didn’t tell them.

Because if they did know, and if they did decide that trying to pursue Meteion was just too hard for them, then they're just as bad as the Convocation. Giving up so that someone else will hopefully fix the problems.

Saying the current path is untenable, and taking drastic action, is not exactly giving up. Remember Venat and her faction don’t seem to distinguish between the Sundered and Unsundered like the Ascians do, to them mankind succeeded.

[vehere]

snip

Nothing there says they knew it was Meteion or the actual source of the Sound. Unless the Japanese version says "Meteion is at the end of the universe, Singing our despair into existence", your quotes don't support your position at all. In fact they directly contradict you, since they aren't saying "this is the fault of outside sources, specifically Hermes escaped creation called Meteion", they're saying "Zodiark isn't enough to stop our doom", but they don't mention anything about it being because of Meteion's song.

If anything it seems Venat just told the Convocation "hey guys Zodiark isn't enough to stop our doom" "why not?" "because he's just not. Trust me bro, I'm Venat." "I mean can you give us an actual reason?" "No, I don't need to. You just need to listen to me."

Yeah we don't do much better, I doubt that had much bearing on Venat's decision to not tell the Convocation about Meteion though.

Our unstable folk don't threaten all life in the Universe either, we can afford to be a little unstable.

Well, I guess Zenos is like 10% Seymour Guado (with the obsessive stalking and coming back from death to continue stalking us). So we're going to need to find our own Sephiroth and Kuja at some point.

And then there was Xande who wanted to either destroy the world and/or take out the entire universe with him because of his nihilism but luckily the WoL doesn't need to deal with him except when farming tomestones.

Or rather what I'm saying is that this is a Final Fantasy game I 100% expect we're going to get another big bad who threatens existence again in a future expansion lol

[EaraGrace]

Nothing there says they knew it was Meteion or the actual source of the Sound. Unless the Japanese version says "Meteion is at the end of the universe, Singing our despair into existence", your quotes don't support your position at all. In fact they directly contradict you, since they aren't saying "this is the fault of outside sources, specifically Hermes escaped creation called Meteion", they're saying "Zodiark isn't enough to stop our doom", but they don't mention anything about it being because of Meteion's song.

First, let’s agree that those at the meeting did indeed say Zodiark wasn’t a permanent solution and that they weren’t saying:

The recording at Anyder shows not that they don't believe Zodiark hasn't fixing things but that they think the effort to return to normal isn't right at the expense of other life.

And if you’re looking for a direct quote from a member of Venats faction saying the word Meteion, then yes you’re not going to get one. My point was that they clearly knew more than simply that they shouldn’t sacrifice more lives. When combined with Venats statements as we leave Elpis





Then we’re left with several clear facts.

1. Venat intended to recruit a group of trusted confidants to help with the fight against Meteion
2. The group that met at Anyder knew that Zodiark was not a solution to the Final Days despite him halting all signs of it
3. This group would summon Hydaelyn and Sunder Zodiark and Etheirys
4. There’s no evidence that any of Venats group were unwilling to commit to the present course and in fact accepted the “eternal condemnation of their brethren.”

Thus, we have reason to believe the group knew more than most of the events surrounding the Final Days, and that they were prepared to face their brethren's wrath.

If anything it seems Venat just told the Convocation "hey guys Zodiark isn't enough to stop our doom" "why not?" "because he's just not. Trust me bro, I'm Venat." "I mean can you give us an actual reason?" "No, I don't need to. You just need to listen to me."

I think it’s likely she was a bit more diplomatic then this tbf.

[Jandor]

Well, I guess Zenos is like 10% Seymour Guado (with the obsessive stalking and coming back from death to continue stalking us). So we're going to need to find our own Sephiroth and Kuja at some point.

And then there was Xande who wanted to either destroy the world and/or take out the entire universe with him because of his nihilism but luckily the WoL doesn't need to deal with him except when farming tomestones.

Or rather what I'm saying is that this is a Final Fantasy game I 100% expect we're going to get another big bad who threatens existence again in a future expansion lol

To be fair, Venat likely wouldn't have told Zenos or Xande about Meteion either.