So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[Michieltjuhh]

Buddy, me not doing the best of damage rotations isnt the issue here. But what youre implying is that this game's "dps check wipes" occur because everyone wasnt performing super optimally. "Oh I know I've been putting out the best damage, that must mean its everybody else's fault and I therefore have to blame them for the wipe". This is a straight up childish excuse with dps checks, theres tons of factors on why wipes could happen during them; too many people dead during the phase, nobody did an LB3, almost everyone in the group have the rez debuff etc. The fights allow margin of error but what you're telling me (and pretty much what I'm hearing from most people whom are for parsing) is that everybody and I mean EVERYBODY was just completely brain dead and didnt press their damage buttons!?

The entire party isnt required for ever single schmuck in the group to output maximum damage to clear a dps check phase. You dont wipe because Bimmy and Jimmy alone didnt do optimal numbers. The game gives you enough leeway to clear them as long as everyone contributes to just dealing damage. So yes you are expected to pull your own weight. You're just not expected to also run a marathon while you're at it.

Mate, you sound like you've never raided in this game. You also keep ignoring people telling you how it really is.

This game's raiding is an almost exclusive dps check. After the first 2 days, the puzzles have been solved, and the boss mechanics are never actually very challenging after people figured out the strategy and then everyone and their mother copies those optimized strategies and suddenly the only thing that still really goes wrong is people doing too low dps.

Now, how they do too low dps is often multiple factors. They take damage downs, they die, they didn't have uptime since they were still uncomfortable with the mechanics while doing their rotation. Most actual wipes to mechanics happen BECAUSE people were trying to optimize dps while doing one of the mechanics that does actually lead to a wipe (most don't). But in the end, the roadblock is not the mechanics, because other people (the day 1 clearers) already figured those out. The roadblock is the enrage. And every single party is going to hit that enrage way before they actually kill the boss, because getting there is trivial, but actually making the dps check is not. When even just dying can in 99% of cases be translated into a dps loss, you know the dps really is pretty much the only thing that matters past the first hour or two of progress.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

They expect you to treat other players with respect in this game. If you want to treat others like garbage WoW is a great fit for you.

Putting effort so your groupmate isn’t doing extra job to compensate, a.k.a. pulling your own weight is one of the form of respecting.

Being carried & refusing to improve for whatever reason is essentially anything but that.

Even funnier, you even tried to drag the game tribalism bs into the discussion. #GCBTW

[Atelier-Bagur]

Mate, you sound like you've never raided in this game. You also keep ignoring people telling you how it really is.

This game's raiding is an almost exclusive dps check. After the first 2 days, the puzzles have been solved, and the boss mechanics are never actually very challenging after people figured out the strategy and then everyone and their mother copies those optimized strategies and suddenly the only thing that still really goes wrong is people doing too low dps.

Now, how they do too low dps is often multiple factors. They take damage downs, they die, they didn't have uptime since they were still uncomfortable with the mechanics while doing their rotation. Most actual wipes to mechanics happen BECAUSE people were trying to optimize dps while doing one of the mechanics that does actually lead to a wipe (most don't). But in the end, the roadblock is not the mechanics, because other people (the day 1 clearers) already figured those out. The roadblock is the enrage. And every single party is going to hit that enrage way before they actually kill the boss, because getting there is trivial, but actually making the dps check is not. When even just dying can in 99% of cases be translated into a dps loss, you know the dps really is pretty much the only thing that matters past the first hour or two of progress.

But thats the point. You have multiple factors for a raid wipe; again too many dead people during phase, people arent properly geared to perform well. Having meters that tell you your dps output isnt the absolute information that determines you didnt clear the enrage, nor is it something that should be pushed on as an be all end all requirement for everyone to raid properly. Dont you dare tell me that I never raided, because I have done enough and managed to clear enrage phases knowing that we did so because we all dealt enough damage to clear it, not because everybody had to chug strength potions into their rotations to pass through dps checks. Unless a good portion of the raid group is absolutely mindless, brainless, completely numb not doing their basic job rotations and not pressing enough of their damage buttons, then yeah you'll get a wipe.

[Rolder50]

But thats the point. You have multiple factors for a raid wipe; again too many dead people during phase, people arent properly geared to perform well. Having meters that tell you your dps output isnt the absolute information that determines you didnt clear the enrage, nor is it something that should be pushed on as an be all end all requirement for everyone to raid properly. Dont you dare tell me that I never raided, because I have done enough and managed to clear enrage phases knowing that we did so because we all dealt enough damage to clear it, not because everybody had to chug strength potions into their rotations to pass through dps checks. Unless a good portion of the raid group is absolutely mindless, brainless, completely numb not doing their basic job rotations and not pressing enough of their damage buttons, then yeah you'll get a wipe.

So what do you do if there are no obvious points of failure like deaths or damage downs and the group is still dying to a DPS Check? It doesn't even need to be the end of fight one but perhaps something like the adds not dying fast enough during P3S, as an example. Just keep bashing until you make it through somehow?

[Michieltjuhh]

But thats the point. You have multiple factors for a raid wipe; again too many dead people during phase, people arent properly geared to perform well. Having meters that tell you your dps output isnt the absolute information that determines you didnt clear the enrage, nor is it something that should be pushed on as an be all end all requirement for everyone to raid properly. Dont you dare tell me that I never raided, because I have done enough and managed to clear enrage phases knowing that we did so because we all dealt enough damage to clear it, not because everybody had to chug strength potions into their rotations to pass through dps checks. Unless a good portion of the raid group is absolutely mindless, brainless, completely numb not doing their basic job rotations and not pressing enough of their damage buttons, then yeah you'll get a wipe.

Most raid wipes past the first 30-50% of progress on a fight (for those not doing it blind, which is the vast majority of raiders) are to enrage, or a wipe being called since too many people made mistakes to still be able to meet the dps requirement. Not actual wipes due to excessive mistakes on mechanics that cause it.

And if you did raid in this game (on release, not after everyone was full tomestone BiS and upgraded with alliance raid tokens, severely outgearing it) then you'd know that sadly, the majority of players are, apparently, absolutely mindless, brainless, completely numb not doing their basic job rotations and not pressing enough of their damage buttons. Because there are a LOT of parties that reach enrage without anyone dying, or a very limited amount of deaths, with people that aren't making mechanical mistakes still doing significantly lower dps than they could and should be doing. And that's those that reach the harder Savage fights early on, which ironically are still among the better players in the community.

So basically, you just called 95% or more of players in this community garbage. Harsh, but that's a lot of players that could use an official damage meter to assist them in bettering their performance, don't you agree?

[Atelier-Bagur]

Most raid wipes past the first 30-50% of progress on a fight (for those not doing it blind, which is the vast majority of raiders) are to enrage, or a wipe being called since too many people made mistakes to still be able to meet the dps requirement. Not actual wipes due to excessive mistakes on mechanics that cause it.

And if you did raid in this game (on release, not after everyone was full tomestone BiS and upgraded with alliance raid tokens, severely outgearing it) then you'd know that sadly, the majority of players are, apparently, absolutely mindless, brainless, completely numb not doing their basic job rotations and not pressing enough of their damage buttons. Because there are a LOT of parties that reach enrage without anyone dying, or a very limited amount of deaths, with people that aren't making mechanical mistakes still doing significantly lower dps than they could and should be doing. And that's those that reach the harder Savage fights early on, which ironically are still among the better players in the community.

So basically, you just called 95% or more of players in this community garbage. Harsh, but that's a lot of players that could use an official damage meter to assist them in bettering their performance, don't you agree?

Oh dear, you found me out. I definitely said those exact words :u.

[Packetdancer]

Also I like to point out the entire reason for this thread is for the belief that everyone should be required to parse.

I'd actually disagree with that read of things; I think a lot of the argument in this thread has been for some sort of parsing tool in-game not because people should be required to parse, but because people who aren't playing on PC deserve access to similar tools to measure their performance, to figure out how they can improve it -- and to chart that improvement as they work on it, which sure helps for staying motivated. (Or at least, it did for me.)

I know that's the position that I'm arguing from, anyway.

Though with the caveat that I think an ACT-type parser is probably not the correct path for an in-game tool, because a) assigning a numerical 'worth' to a player is not a path that leads to less toxicity and confrontation, and b) an ACT-style live-logging DPS meter is not an objective measurement regardless, since the real-time damage is going to be highly dependent on the rest of the party. Did the AST actually pop Divination and distribute cards, were the melee buffed by the RDM actually using Embolden, etc.

(Witness my hypothetical dream design, that's more like a built-in XIVanalysis type tool than a purely numeric parser.)

But even insofar as DPS meters go, I don't think it's toxic to look at the DPS being generated after several pulls, go "Okay, we just mathematically do not have the damage to clear this fight with this party" and go your separate ways. As opposed to beating your head against a brick wall for two hours in the futile hope that more DPS magically appears, until you're frustrated and snappish at each other.

[Michieltjuhh]

Oh dear, you found me out. I definitely said those exact words :u.

You said people failing the most challenging part of a Savage boss are 'absolutely mindless, brainless, completely numb not doing their basic job rotations and not pressing enough of their damage buttons'. I'd wager that's because you disagree with that notion, but make no mistake, beating the enrage timer is by far the most challenging part, other than figuring out strategies for the mechanics, which the vast majority of players do not do, since they copy those from others. This stays the case until people outgear the content enough that even a subpar performance will suffice. At that point, the only people that are still raiding are those who struggle with the easier part of the fight - the mechanics already spelled out for them. Until then, whether you like it or not, early in the tier, people fail the dps checks all the time, because they do way too low dps despite failing no mechanics. Again, an official damage meter would assist them in bettering their performance.

[Amon-ster]

I don't know why people are completely against the idea that a collective lack of DPS can actually cause you to not defeat a boss.
There have definitely been times where NOBODY died, NOBODY got a damage down debuff, EVERYONE performed the mechanics perfectly, and we STILL hit 15-10% HP enrage. And that's with a Melee LB3 and LB1. At that point it isn't "multiple factors could have gone into that". It's straight up a lack of damage output. That isn't a rare occurrence, either.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Its like people arent even paying attention to what Im trying to say. Im not stating that everyone in this community doesnt know how to play their class, Im only stating that enrage timer clears happen because people within the group at least know how to do their rotations. If you're just sitting there not even trying and it just so happens that most of the group are also doing the exact same thing then of course there will be a wipe. Obviously I'm not the BEST example for raiding but from my experiencing with clearing Savage raids (yes including Pandaemonium Savages), I did them with my FC who dont rely on dps meters or external tools. I know there are mature people who can use those tools to positively engage with their group to do better or to gauge whats wrong. But you seriously cannot trust people in an online game enough to have it implemented where they dont use it to measure personal performance but to harass other players and make excuses for raid wipes. Its a behavior thats common with raiding in many MMOs, this is nothing new.

Since when did any MMO where they implemented those tools officially or otherwise made the raiding community better? Stuff like that just leads to yet another avenue for elitism. Yoshi-P and the devs know this and just like most of us, have been around the block in the MMO world to know the toxicity that brings. They just dont want to risk it and I know Im not the only one who agrees with that.

Its been even stated that initial progging period only exists for a short time before people already figure the fight out or we get BiS gear that makes them easier to clear. So why even have dps meters? Personally I'm happy to just learn how to play my class and do my rotations properly from looking up guides online and just basic practicing. I dont need dps numbers to measure my "worth" as a raider nor do I need to start judging others for forgetting to use one or 2 skills within their rotation in the heat of the moment.

But like Ive stated, these tools are already out there for those that want it. Theres no need to bother the devs to implement it officially when its not necessary for design of the content.