*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Jandor]

That framing is pretty funny. It's like an "Emet-Selch stan" asking you, "what's morally ambiguous about curing the zombie apocalypse?"

I don't get it, are the sundered meant to be the zombies?

[tokinokanatae]

I don't get it, are the sundered meant to be the zombies?

To be less glib, I was pointing out that the framing of the question is in bad faith. Emet-Selch obviously has distaste for his task--a distaste probably only exceeded by his distaste towards the Sundered in general--but he sees what he's doing as returning the world to its natural state. To him, as long as the end result are souls equal (or near enough, if nothing really can be done about the 13th) to the density of Ancient souls, he'll have fulfilled his mission to save the planet. "Destroying worlds" was the only way he knew how to do this. If he could have rejoined worlds by becoming a world class competitive hot dog eater, he would have done that instead.

To answer the question, there isn't really anything ambiguous about "destroying eight worlds", any more than there is anything "ambiguous" about destroying a single one and creating 14 chunks of world in the process. We can only look at what those actions were hoping to accomplish. In both cases, the suffering and pain was a byproduct of the action. The intentions of both were to "save the world." The definition of "save" and "world" just differs.

[Lium]

Snip

The reason why I framed it that way is to highlight that, regardless of the point of view, the means do not justify the ends. Emet-Selch wiped out eight planets with untold amounts of people. Not to mention all the cultures and societies he wiped out on the Source. Only Meteion has killed more.

Even though there are plenty of real-life comparisons I could draw from, I'm going to keep this squarely in the realm of fantasy. Avengers: Endgame. Thanos' goal is actually to save the universe. Overpopulation and a dwindling of resources is apparently a cosmic problem. He has a point and I think we all can agree that these are problems on our own world. However, his solution is to wipe out half the population in the entire universe. He hasn't given anyone else a choice in the matter, or even a voice. He has simply come to a solution and acted on it.

Emet-Selch and those on the Convocation who agreed with him, do much the same thing. This is the problem. We can argue semantics and differing point of views all we want, but summoning Zodiark and then initiating Rejoinings does something that goes against the entire foundation of the Hydaelyn-Zodiark story: it does not answer Hermes' question because it removes a singularly important aspect. Choice.

Venat's solution, which is still a very dark option, provides the sundered people with a choice. What kind of world will we build? Humankind will now walk instead of fly. The suffering, the wars, the greed, the strife are all constructs of what humanity has become. It is a deeply flawed and fractured species, but that's the point. The Ancients were near god-like. To them, the very notion of asking "Is humankind worth saving" is, in the words of Emet-Selch, sophistry. Of course they are worth saving. But only their version - the true version - is worth it.

Though we haven't seen the full story, Venat, it appears, did in fact try to reason with the Convocation and seemed to have a faction that helped her summon Hydaelyn. The cutscene showed that.

By sundering the world, humanity, in spite of its imperfections - or because of them - is given the choice to earn the right to live, which thus answers Hermes' question: Is humankind worth saving? Summoning Zodiark, even if that was, ironically, Hermes' idea, does not provide an answer to that question because it only stalls the Final Days, not prevents them. It does not say, "Yes, we have a right to live." It removes the question altogether. That's the whole point of why Venat did what she did.

Again, we can argue whether or not she was right or wrong. We can say she also killed a bunch of people and you won't get much argument out of me there (although she didn't wipe out eight worlds, she in fact created 14). But this is the story as it is written and presented in the game.

This is why I've been calling the plan to summon Zodiark idiotic.

[Absimiliard]

Hol' up, what? You realize the newly created humanity's choice came at the expense of their forbears, right? The Ancients weren't given a choice. The beings born from their sundering did not, in fact, retain those memories. They began in ignorance and built whole new lives and civilizations for themselves. Venat basically hit reset on the entire planet like it was a PS3.

[Lium]

Hol' up, what? You realize the newly created humanity's choice came at the expense of their forbears, right? The Ancients weren't given a choice. The beings born from their sundering did not, in fact, retain those memories. They began in ignorance and built whole new lives and civilizations for themselves. Venat basically hit reset on the entire planet like it was a PS3.

No, actually she did give them a choice. That's why I wrote this sentence: "Though we haven't seen the full story, Venat, it appears, did in fact try to reason with the Convocation and seemed to have a faction that helped her summon Hydaelyn. The cutscene showed that."

Go re-watch the sundering cutscene if you haven't already.

Also, that reset was the point. That's what saved humanity and gave us a chance at fighting and defeating Meteion.

[KizuyaKatogami]

No, actually she did give them a choice. That's why I wrote this sentence: "Though we haven't seen the full story, Venat, it appears, did in fact try to reason with the Convocation and seemed to have a faction that helped her summon Hydaelyn. The cutscene showed that."

Go re-watch the sundering cutscene if you haven't already.

Also, that reset was the point. That's what saved humanity and gave us a chance at fighting and defeating Meteion.

She approached them after the damage had been done, and she didnt exactly get consent from every ancient alive. She had the knowledge to potentially save the race itself and to prevent the final days altogether. She kept it a secret and then took control of every life upon the planet, sundering them. Again, people rant and rave about the consent with Mitron or with the rejoinings, you had better apply the same to Venat and her horrible decision-making.You call the plan to summon Zodiark idiotic. You realize the only reason they had to do this was because Venat refused to share information right? It's funny in your other post youre talking about choice, she didnt give the ancients any choice. She tried to approach them after the damage was done and their friends and family had died, and then made a decision that would impact the universe as we know it. However even barring that, Zodiark was the only reason we were even able to succeed, so by calling the plan idiotic, youre essentially saying that ensuring sundered survival is idiotic as well. Interesting take.

[Rannie]

No, actually she did give them a choice. That's why I wrote this sentence: "Though we haven't seen the full story, Venat, it appears, did in fact try to reason with the Convocation and seemed to have a faction that helped her summon Hydaelyn. The cutscene showed that."

Go re-watch the sundering cutscene if you haven't already.

Also, that reset was the point. That's what saved humanity and gave us a chance at fighting and defeating Meteion.

Sound also to me like the convocation of 14 was a ruling body of government for the planet. And they do tend to be able to make decisions on what they feel is right for the people. Also we have no idea how long it was between the last set of sacrifices and the third set they were proposing, so we can not even state that the common man had no choice in the matter. For all we know they did have that choice and the majority were voting for that third sacrifice and not listening to what Venat and her group where saying.

Quoted you Lium just to add this to it

[tokinokanatae]

I don't understand how you can frame things in "choice" vs "non choice" and come to the conclusion that Emet-Selch is the one that is the one invested in non-consent. Note, this is not a "good" or "bad" aspect of Emet-Selch, it just literally is. Emet-Selch is actually huge on consent. (Just not informed consent.)

Let's actually break this down.

The Ascians do not actually rejoin Shards by shooting lasers at the populace in the aspect they are trying to tip the Shard towards. Their plans always involve working with the population of said Shard and the Source to achieve their ends. They also don't tend to literally lie outright--though they certainly lie by omission--instead offering their chosen target something that will serve the interests of both parties. We can see this in the Vauthry scene. Emet-Selch doesn't visit Vauthry's mother in the middle of the night, while she slumbers, to inject her with liquid sin eater. He instead approaches the family and speaks to them directly, explaining what he can offer then and what it will entail. Once they accept the devil's bargain, Emet-Selch then does what he says he would--probably with a sardonic curl to his lips as he once again finds the justification he wants in allowing the "half men" to be the agent of their own eventual demise.

Venat, on the other hand, lies to us pretty much constantly. She lies about the origins of Zodiark and Hydaelyn to us. She lies to us about how much power she has, what she is capable of accomplishing with that power. She allowed Hermes's lie to Emet-Selch and Hythlodeus to stand. She lies about what will happen when she assumes the guise of Hydaelyn to her followers. She did not tell us that we were shattered 14 parts of a greater whole to allow that to factor into the "choices" you say she gave us.

Zodiark was the work of elected officials after debate and struggle to save their star. Venat basically hijacked their work as a part of her own plan--a plan she didn't even share with her closest followers--and acted like the act of summoning Zodiark itself was some sort proof of moral deficiency. At best, she just kicked the can down the road 12K years for us to deal with. And if after all that, we couldn't? Well, she left her escape plan to the most isolationist society in the known world--thus practically ensuring the people that would be able to board her ark were limited at best--and the remaining six planets were shit out of luck. Looks like she valued their lives in the worst case scenario about as much as the Ascians did.

[EaraGrace]

The Ascians do not actually rejoin Shards by shooting lasers at the populace in the aspect they are trying to tip the Shard towards. Their plans always involve working with the population of said Shard and the Source to achieve their ends. They also don't tend to literally lie outright--though they certainly lie by omission--instead offering their chosen target something that will serve the interests of both parties.

I can hear Gaius screaming from Werlyt and Varis howling from the afterlife right now.

We can see this in the Vauthry scene. Emet-Selch doesn't visit Vauthry's mother in the middle of the night, while she slumbers, to inject her with liquid sin eater. He instead approaches the family and speaks to them directly, explaining what he can offer then and what it will entail.

The deal was to ensure Vauthrys line would rule for perpetuity, not that he be the last king. Emet was clearly manipulating him. This wasn’t a partnership.

Venat, on the other hand, lies to us pretty much constantly. She lies about the origins of Zodiark and Hydaelyn to us. She lies to us about how much power she has, what she is capable of accomplishing with that power. She allowed Hermes's lie to Emet-Selch and Hythlodeus to stand. She lies about what will happen when she assumes the guise of Hydaelyn to her followers. She did not tell us that we were shattered 14 parts of a greater whole to allow that to factor into the "choices" you say she gave us.

Only one of these is true, the others are reaches for lies or are based on no evidence. To blame her for not telling Emet and Hyth, when the game clearly states the problems with that, is unfair to her.

Zodiark was the work of elected officials after debate and struggle to save their star. Venat basically hijacked their work as a part of her own plan--a plan she didn't even share with her closest followers--and acted like the act of summoning Zodiark itself was some sort proof of moral deficiency. At best, she just kicked the can down the road 12K years for us to deal with. And if after all that, we couldn't? Well, she left her escape plan to the most isolationist society in the known world--thus practically ensuring the people that would be able to board her ark were limited at best--and the remaining six planets were shit out of luck. Looks like she valued their lives in the worst case scenario about as much as the Ascians did.

No evidence she didn’t share the full plan, in fact based on the recording in Anyder they knew more than the Convocation. And Ishgard became isolationist, to prepare. Before that they participated in international affairs as much as any nation, but given the gravity of what was needed, they withdrew to focus on their work. And how was that to work? Create 13 moon ships? For a contingency if everything else failed? We don’t even know if that’s possible!

Edit: I meant Sharlayan not Ishgard lol

[Lium]

I don't understand how you can frame things in "choice" vs "non choice" and come to the conclusion that Emet-Selch is the one that is the one invested in non-consent. Note, this is not a "good" or "bad" aspect of Emet-Selch, it just literally is. Emet-Selch is actually huge on consent. (Just not informed consent.)

The "choice" the Ascians give the local populace on whatever shard they are about to destroy is manipulation and the illusion of choice. It's no different than if some conman came to you and said, "Would you like a million dollars?" And you say, "Yes!" and then he says, "Great. You just have to do this thing." You go and do that thing not realizing that the million dollars you are going to receive has just doomed you and your entire family.

Emet-Selch and Lahabrea were masters at identifying the weakness and desires of certain leaders, and then exploiting them.

But all this is moot because the overall goal is to Rejoin the shard, which removes the question altogether.

Zodiark was the work of elected officials to, for all intents and purposes, enslave themselves to a conjured god indefinitely. They were all going to be tempered and on top of that, still had no idea what the underlying cause of the Final Days were. The only solution they had after the Sundering was to genocide all the sundered people to bring their perfect civilization back. A civilization that was doomed to fall because, once again, they Final Days were not prevented.

Venat's plan outright answers Hermes' question and permanently stops the Final Days.