What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Berteaux_Braumegain]

I don't think the Telophoroi were supposed to be anything deeper than the brainwashed Garleans under Fandaniel's control, but it is weird that the writers went out of a way to give them a special name and never really went in-depth on them.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The problem is from the initial inception of the game right up until now they're still bound by many of those narrations set earlier in the game. That includes the whole light vs dark, or Hydaelyn good Zodiark bad nonsense. It's difficult to get around stuff like that. Personally, I'd have been happy with us not facing Emet-Selch whatsoever but instead having him as the guide or sorts on our journey and acting as a true sacrificial lamb towards the end. Continually deciding our worth. To be frank I think he thought we were 'worthy' pretty early on, with the missive comment he made of our soul and all. But just carrying on his condescending attitude. Equally I've said many times that I personally think Endwalker needed to be longer (I like the world building and I don't want that sacrificed), at least given how post-shadowbringers was handled. To be frank I think Post-Shadowbringers had a lot of consequences on how Endwalker was told. It left a few questions which ultimately should not have been left unanswered.

I'd have been happy if our budget Emet-Selch (Fandaniel) never existed to begin with. Or at least have him introduced in Endwalker and then left post-Shadowbringers dedicated almost entirely to flushing out Elidibus. Speaking of Fandaniel; I don't think we ever found out more about the telophoroi.

Yep i agree with all of these points. As much as i love Shadowbringers, just like other people have stated they really wrote themselves into a corner. I think a lot of it has to do with a trend i’ve pointed out with Ishikawa in making everyone and everything sympathetic. It leaves very little room for just plain and simple evil. It also leaves very little room to explore nuance and all that. Fandaniel was a wasted opportunity imo. I get the whole subverting expectations with having him die off early but…i hardly felt anything for it because we didn’t know much about him to begin with until later. We didn’t learn more about the teliphoroi, we didn’t learn more about zenos’ memories of the final days nor did fandaniel even elaborate on the whole “did emet selch find a way?”

This may be my bias showing(totally is), but i think it would’ve been extremely more interesting if say, like you said Emet had been our guide on our journey to dictate our worth, and they went back to Elidibus’ whole shtick on balance, him keeping the peace on both sides and them eventually both hydaelyn and zodiark having to work together to combat some immensely greater threat. I think it at the very least would’ve worked better than the convoluted time mess we got and the unanswered questions, and at least would’ve done a better job keeping everything neutral.

[Lauront]

People have mentioned how Hydaelyn sundering her own people is akin to genocide and I honestly don't care to argue that point. What I want to argue is that she sundered the world, knowing very well that the shards would be kindling for the fire. That makes her no better than the ascians. They wanted to save something, she wanted to save something. She kept her memory and that was the problem. I would have rather fought something I could be sad about, a mercy killing. It's the way the writing presents it that makes seem a certain way and that just feels manipulative. I felt the same way about certain characters such as Hythlodaeus who I found to be one of the most depressing characters in the game. He feels his contribution to the world isn't anything and thus considers his friends' work to be his lifework. He thinks so little of himself that he lives through other people. Painting him as a happy person doesn't change that for me.

As for Hydaelyn's backup plan, the escape to another planet, was also a complete gamble. Even the rabbits had identified only a few suitable planets and even they were not sure if if they would be able to sustain the life they put on it. After you get to such a planet, what then? Are we sure people would get along? That the planets native inhabitants would just be okay with aliens there? Midgardsormr called Hydaelyn(planet) the "last bastion of hope". A giant dragon had already flew through space looking for a place he could bring his eggs. Even after we stayed and defeated Metion and Alphanaud making his speeches about a better tomorrow, that sounds like history is just going to repeat itself. Man will always want world peace, and will always seek a paradise. Absolutely no change.

There were people asking about Ishikawa and I don't remember what interview it was but she will not be returning as a lead writer. I don't know if she will be returning as a writer at all for the game or is just moving on completely. I don't think she's a bad writer at all. I think she has a lot of growing to do in not making "safe" one sided stories. She also had a lot on her plate with Endwalker. She didn't know they were combining the last two expansions into one. That coupled with obvious last minute changes that she had to re-work in, it's no wonder Endwalker ended up in such a mess. I don't know if she made the decision to step down or that it was Yoshi P's decision. If I had to guess it's the former. I've seen it happen to writers put under pressure. So I don't blame her for how Endwalker ended up, I blame Yoshi P. A story made to be unpredictable will start to not make sense. A predictable story is not necessarily a bad thing and it shows that the story has cohesion.

I also don't know what "loose ends" Endwalker was supposed to tie up. We had the origins and deaths of both Hydaelyn and Zodiark, the source of the final days, and I guess the sound? All I got was more questions.

Just to tack on, 5.3 made me feel like crap. Y'shtola said something along the lines that maybe Elidibus's love for his people will reward him. Then they celibrate and have their tea break. I liked the Scions before, 5.3 made me care less about them. They could have died in Endwalker and I would have felt nothing.

For rating wise, I'm putting the second half of Endwalker under ARR. ARR may have been badly paced and plenty of problems, but on paper and if it were created today I feel I would have enjoyed it a lot more than Endwalker.

I also forgot about the age old question, how does the Japanese forums feel about Endwalker?

Great points. Regarding Ishikawa, the only thing I'm aware of is a tweet of hers saying she wants her junior staff to write to their hearts' content for 6.1+ or something along those lines. The way she worded it here was definitely suggestive of ending the plot on a shorter timescale than she'd have liked, IMO.

It’s really dense in volume so I’m having doubts on whether I can finish them and meet the schedule deadline, so I’m working hard here to make sure it’s delivered on time. (laughs)

We can actually make it work if we wanted to actually prolong the story of Hydaelyn-Zodiark arc, and there’s definitely a lot more places to explore in Eorzea, the world players first started their journey.

I personally am fine with ending the story at around patch 7.0 or 8.0, but I believe the decision to end the story precisely at this timing must have brought out the sense of speed as well, and I hope that, with this decision, it will allow us to able to properly grasp on what what kind of story “FFXIV” we can provide to our players, considering the fact that this expansion will be released in 2021.

The problem is from the initial inception of the game right up until now they're still bound by many of those narrations set earlier in the game. That includes the whole light vs dark, or Hydaelyn good Zodiark bad nonsense. It's difficult to get around stuff like that. Personally, I'd have been happy with us not facing Emet-Selch whatsoever but instead having him as the guide or sorts on our journey and acting as a true sacrificial lamb towards the end. Continually deciding our worth. To be frank I think he thought we were 'worthy' pretty early on, with the missive comment he made of our soul and all. But just carrying on his condescending attitude. Equally I've said many times that I personally think Endwalker needed to be longer (I like the world building and I don't want that sacrificed), at least given how post-shadowbringers was handled. To be frank I think Post-Shadowbringers had a lot of consequences on how Endwalker was told. It left a few questions which ultimately should not have been left unanswered.

I'd have been happy if our budget Emet-Selch (Fandaniel) never existed to begin with. Or at least have him introduced in Endwalker and then left post-Shadowbringers dedicated almost entirely to flushing out Elidibus. Speaking of Fandaniel; I don't think we ever found out more about the telophoroi.

The way Yoshi answered the questions about Emet here, I think they could've easily done something like that.

[OhNooo]

This may be my bias showing(totally is), but i think it would’ve been extremely more interesting if say, like you said Emet had been our guide on our journey to dictate our worth, and they went back to Elidibus’ whole shtick on balance, him keeping the peace on both sides and them eventually both hydaelyn and zodiark having to work together to combat some immensely greater threat. I think it at the very least would’ve worked better than the convoluted time mess we got and the unanswered questions, and at least would’ve done a better job keeping everything neutral.

Yes I would've loved something like this. At this point I'm tired of just killing everything instead of trying to form mutually beneficial alliances. One of the things I loved about HW was teaming up with Hraesvelgr and Ysale and lately it just seems like we've killed everything until nothing's left to form any opposition. If we could've somehow formed an alliance with at least one of the unsundered, I think that would've taken the story in a very interesting direction.

[Kaurhz]

Yep i agree with all of these points. As much as i love Shadowbringers, just like other people have stated they really wrote themselves into a corner. I think a lot of it has to do with a trend i’ve pointed out with Ishikawa in making everyone and everything sympathetic. It leaves very little room for just plain and simple evil. It also leaves very little room to explore nuance and all that. Fandaniel was a wasted opportunity imo. I get the whole subverting expectations with having him die off early but…i hardly felt anything for it because we didn’t know much about him to begin with until later. We didn’t learn more about the teliphoroi, we didn’t learn more about zenos’ memories of the final days nor did fandaniel even elaborate on the whole “did emet selch find a way?”

This may be my bias showing(totally is), but i think it would’ve been extremely more interesting if say, like you said Emet had been our guide on our journey to dictate our worth, and they went back to Elidibus’ whole shtick on balance, him keeping the peace on both sides and them eventually both hydaelyn and zodiark having to work together to combat some immensely greater threat. I think it at the very least would’ve worked better than the convoluted time mess we got and the unanswered questions, and at least would’ve done a better job keeping everything neutral.

You see the irony is in the fact that many of these questions should have reasonably been answered in Shadowbringers, and arguably in the case of Zenos; he should have been addressed in Stormblood. Ultimately some of their rushed areas in previous expansions just left slim chances of everything actually being addressed promptly. In fact, arguably Meteion as a character should really have been teased in Shadowbringers too. It'd actually elude more to what the issues were, seeing as the 'sound' was introduced in the base MSQ of ShB.

I would say that'd have been a better approach since it keeps to the confines of maintaining the balance with Elidibus and then whole Emet-Selch judging our worth. But not only that it'd have been a real nice send-off to the ancients themselves if they could actually see what was causing their downfall. I don't think the primals themselves should have been the ones to work together, but rather us with the unsundered. Back to the previous paragraph really, many of the questions that were left unanswered should have been addressed in previous expansions.

[Berteaux_Braumegain]

My take on the Venat/Emet-Selch thing is this:

Emet-Selch is a pitiable villain (after he gets blasted by Kairos), and a good man before. But once he gets to the point that he's willing to destroy thirteen worlds to bring back the old world, he can't be called sympathetic. It's even a bit funny to me that he gets upset at the idea that people would fight against the Ascians and claims that them trying to claim the worlds for themselves is arrogant, even while he claims the world for himself and his people just because they came first. That said, I imagine at least part of that is the result of being brainwashed by Zodiark, as he's a lot more lucid on revival, even if he's still a little salty at Venat.

Venat on the other hand is a little... complicated. I think it's the result of telling a time travel story, which I've admittedly rarely been a fan of. I feel that Venat has very good intentions for what she does, much like Emet-Selch. She is the only one who is aware of Meteion's talk about life on other planets eventually choosing death and sees the people offering their lives to Zodiark as the same thing. Understandably, she's disturbed by that, so she sunders the world in order to give life a chance to survive. That said, Venat herself says that she's not sure the move was the right one, and the angle people brought up in this thread of "death of identity" is one I hadn't really considered. By the end of her actions, the only people that "survive" are herself, Emet-Selch, Elidibus, and Lahabrea, so it does feel a little tone-deaf calling her a hero, I suppose, even if I personally can understand why she did what she did. I also found her assumption that everyone could just go to a new planet kind of flawed since Meteion could just destroy that planet as well?

In the end, I feel like the Zodiark/Hydaelyn conflict had no one right answer. Zodiark was necessary to forestall the Final Days, Hydaelyn was necessary to defeat Meteion (since dynamis was apparently the only thing that could overcome her?). Both sides with the knowledge they had made the decisions they thought were right, even if the writing to get us to that point feels a little shaky. I suppose Venat never told anyone what she knew since she was afraid Hermes would pull some more nonsense?

Also, on the topic of Elidibus, I do feel like the Shadowbringers patches just kinda accelerated his role and changed his character a bit suddenly to the point he felt different from how I remembered him being, but I will say that I'm not disappointed with his actual fight. I rather like the idea that he is Zodiark and the Primal form he chooses is of a hero, because of course the people of Amaurot would see Zodiark as a hero given what he was summoned to do for Etheirys.

[Theodric]

Yes I would've loved something like this. At this point I'm tired of just killing everything instead of trying to form mutually beneficial alliances. One of the things I loved about HW was teaming up with Hraesvelgr and Ysale and lately it just seems like we've killed everything until nothing's left to form any opposition. If we could've somehow formed an alliance with at least one of the unsundered, I think that would've taken the story in a very interesting direction.

Yeah, it's odd. JRPG's have never shied away from having sympathetic antagonists team up with the protagonists in order to combat a greater threat. Many Final Fantasy games have themselves done as much.

Incidentally, it's also why FFVIIR and FFIX stand higher in my list of favourite FF games than FFXIV. The Scions are very dry and inoffensive in my view, with few or no meaningful quirks. They never really disagree with each other in any meaningful capacity and I can practically see the drool leaking out of the corners of their mouths each time they decide that, once again, they're going to start working towards a 'better tomorrow'!

[Berteaux_Braumegain]

To be fair, the Scions have known each other for years before A Realm Reborn (and possibly even Legacy) started, so they undoubtedly worked out any issues they had back when Louisoix was in the picture.

That said, I imagine the overall lack of group conflict is why Urianger is typically written doing shady things now and then so there's at least some group conflict. Also Y'shtola being a bit abrasive on The First towards Thancred about the Minfilia thing.

[Caurcas]

From another angle, them focusing on narrative has also probably been a negative for narrative paradoxically. They are focused more on production value and visual flair and "gotcha!" moments instead of actual meat to the narrative.

[linayar]

All these people bashing the ancients for sacrificing etc. I’m really curious then on how you all feel with Venat’s backup plan being to sacrifice all of the other shards and only have the people on the source survive. So much for all of her “children” hm?

What are you talking about? When was Venat sacrificing the other shards? (On a side note, is the Source considered a shard as well or just the reflections?)

Or how about we talk about ironworks, instead of moving forward, decided to mess with time and jeopardize billions of people just to being 1 person back to life. So much for the sundered moving forward and not being tied to the past.

How were they jeopardizing billions of people? Either way, we weren't put in a position to judge them.

Oh but i’m sure this is just one of many examples of it being perfectly okay when the protagonists do it, but when the antagonists do it it’s wrong.

Actually, if you want to put it that way, that's fine by me. As I said, this story is told from our point of view. Anything that harms us is to be fought. That's not even something to be argued against.

As far as Venat telling people goes, we at the very least know she didn’t even tell the truth to her own people who were going to sacrifice themselves for Hydaelyn. As per the anamnesis cutscene, it seems they didn’t even know she was going to die or that they would be sacrificed.

I don't think we have enough information regarding this. It seems to me that the cutscene we saw was a recreation centered on Venat's motivation, rather than a chronological retelling of the events that happened.

What is said, when it's said, how it's said are all important factors for convincing someone to take or allow action. Her wording would've invoked me to take action against her.

At what point would you take action against her? When she was helping you through some of the biggest fights through her blessing? Where in the chronology between 1.0 (or 2.0) up to 6.0 would you have the chance to come around and take action against her?

Actually, she wanted to see if mankind could survive on their own and indeed initiated the fight herself. So, taking action against her would've just played into her plan. The only difference is it'd be going out of the WoL's character to do it sooner than the trial. Because up to that point, she had not taken action against the WoL.