[SPOILERS] Hermes is a hypocrite.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Honestly, it may just be because I forgot but I feel like... Hermes just didn't talk very much about his own emotional issues with anyone? Because we know the Ancients could feel grief (see Eric) and that there were some sort of problems going on which required a position like Azem's to be made. So while things might have been fine in Elpis itself, elsewhere could have been a different story. But since Hermes largely stayed in Elpis as far as I can tell, and was apparently a very good boss/leader that his people respected, he didn't really have much of a chance to find anyone who could share in his doubts. He just assumed nobody would really understand how he felt and did nothing to reach out or discuss his feelings with people.

Maybe if he had just left Elpis for a few weeks he could have found someone who could have understood him. But then again maybe he would be the type who would insist nobody really understands his questions and would have turned away from such a person. Who knows!

Some of the side quests even show that some of the other ancients had a bit of the same feelings as Hermes did, however they found their own ways to get over it. I really don’t think he spoke out about it to anyone and just sulked on his own until he reached a breaking point. There isn’t really anyone to blame for that but himself though.

[vehere]

snip

The Elpis flower was mentioned to be rare even there, and I don't think he took people there to stand beside it and see what color it turns. I honestly get the complete opposite. I don't think he talked much, if at all, about his feelings with anyone. Probably because he assumed his feelings were in some way 'wrong'. When he speaks of his concerns, it seems more not about his own mixed emotions and more about how he doesn't understand why the previous Fandaniel would want to die because he couldn't understand his predecessors thinking. In real life, we have similar EOL discussions, but also we aren't immortal and free of sickness like the Ancients are so we're a bit different in that way. My grandmother passed away not from illness but simply because she was tired, and felt she had done all she could and wanted to do. I can't understand her decision myself, because I wasn't in her shoes.

Hermes couldn't imagine his predecessors' decision, because he wasn't in his boots. Hermes was basing his "why" question on his own feelings and how he understood things, rather than considering it from Fandanny1.0's perspective.

Like, we know he had it boiling inside him. My logic is that it *had* to have come out in past conversations. I might be being overly charitable in my interpretation of him, but I do think we're meant to assume he has good reason to think that most other Ancients see nothing wrong with society's views on death and stewardship of new creations, rather than it just being in his head.

And if one just does the MSQ with none of the side quests or going to Panda, or the short stories, then one might agree with Hermes at some level. But with all the extra information we get from side quests, Panda, and the short stories, it seems Hermes view of things is not 100% correct on the Ancient's views of death and stewardship. Or at least, what he believed the views of Elpis' researchers were might not have been the views of all Ancients.

[Absimiliard]

This is late and bothering me, but this is how testing in Elpis *worked.* The test he was having Meteion do was as if she was one of the testers in Elpis, and humans were the ones being tested.

It's not, though? In the rare event they were testing something sapient, the testers always gave the tested the tools required for a fair chance at passing the test. In most cases, however, the entities they were testing had no greater intelligence than animals.

[Cleretic]

I think it's a correct (or at least valid) reading that Hermes was, in some way, not neurotypical or mentally healthy. He was fundamentally not thinking in the same ways as everyone else around him. I don't know what, if anything, I'd diagnose him with (a lot of people say depression, I don't think so), but I feel like modern Earth would find ways to help him cope with that and figure himself out.

...but he wasn't here with us, he was in Amaurot, a civilization that values conformity to an insane degree and isn't very good at grasping actual problems or alternative thoughts. I can't imagine that's a civilization with a terribly strong concept of mental health, so I'm not surprised at all that he wouldn't be inclined to share the feelings he knows aren't common. There's probably nowhere safe and understanding to even talk about it, and even if there is, I don't see Amaurot being a place that would treat someone well when they learn they're getting psychiatric help.

[Alleo]

"The creatures are a means of defense" is quite an utilitarian view of another being's life, isn't it? Why aren't those creatures lives worthy of living? Because Hermes deemed them less valuable than his answers? Regardless of wether you agree with that or not, Hermes had before manifested an extreme aversion to any loss of life. He almos had a breakdown over the death of a dangerous, uncontrolable beast. Yet, he backpaddled the moment it suited his needs. He did the exact same thing that he so despised on his peers.

Even before the reports he was a bit of a hypocrite. He mourned the loss of the wolves but barely reacted to the victims of the beasts. He hated that beings that were seen as imperfect would be destroyed (and I do feel his view there I really do) yet was fine that monstrous beings got created at all...beings that would surely kill a lot in their time on the planet. Cutting the lifes and potential of their victims short, while they die in absolute pain and terror.

He hates how the Ancients view their creations but creates Meteion and her sisters soley for his own goals. And he sents them out into the unknown, all on their own, when Meteion cant even stand a simple argument. Never thought how it would feel for them, to fly around the vast space of the universe all on their own. Never really thought about the situation that they could find tragedy. So utterly naive in that regards.

And as you said, at the end he throws all these beasts at us without a care. Forces Meteion to connect to the hive mind and to give her reports even when she is in so much pain. And goes with her plan even when he knows what will happen...bringing doom and suffering not only to the Ancients (including the people he worked with for a long time..) but all their creations too..

Hermes was on the verge of a mental breakdown, his life's work put in jeopardy, and his surrogate daughter figure put on the chopping block; I can understand why he was acting irrationally. Besides, letting aggressive predators out of their cages gave them a window of opportunity to live their best lives, non? /s

I have a really hard time seeing that he was like a daughter to him. He was quite fine with sending his "daughters" out into the unknown space, where they would have to travel and do everything alone.

He was quite fine with forcing her to connect to the hivemind again after we caught her, even though she was in quite the pain before that. (And against her wishes too because Meteion herself did not want to say what her sisters had found)

And when she was forced to report the findings he let her continue just for his own sake. He might have remembered her in that instance but again Meteion did not even want to tell it to them and she was probably suffering while she was connected to the hive mind (so much that she later turned at the end of the dungeon).

For me there was never really much care for Meteion and her sisters after the reports started. All he wanted was to hear about their findings. (And I am not saying that he never really cared at all, but that this caring was never as much as the wish to find the answer)

The Elpis flower was mentioned to be rare even there, and I don't think he took people there to stand beside it and see what color it turns.

Not only that but the flower also does not turn another color even with him and us being there. (When we first saw it) Only when we focus on our sadness does it change in the later scene. So it could also simply be that others do have these emotions but hide them away or are just simply happy in that moment.

I guess Hermes was just really naive. He himself was able to hide his pain enough that the color of the flowers did not change, yet seemingly never thought that others would be able to do that too? He also seemingly never once thought that other planets would not be peaceful at all.

[EaraGrace]

Even before the reports he was a bit of a hypocrite. He mourned the loss of the wolves but barely reacted to the victims of the beasts. He hated that beings that were seen as imperfect would be destroyed (and I do feel his view there I really do) yet was fine that monstrous beings got created at all...beings that would surely kill a lot in their time on the planet. Cutting the lifes and potential of their victims short, while they die in absolute pain and terror.

I think his view is more rooted in his displeasure with the Lykaons being made in such a way as to make their death a necessity. The Ancients were prone to creation on a whim, relying on fads or recent developments for inspiration. The result is no small few creations that simply cannot be allowed to exist, through no fault of their own. Hythlodaeus points to the same phenomenon when we encounter the walking shark, and Pandaemonium is the literal embodiment of how that impulse has given rise to cruelty. The fact that Lahabrea created multiple failed beings, whose destinies were to remain locked away and forgotten, for nothing else other than a desire for accomplishment, doesn’t speak well to their priorities.

He hates how the Ancients view their creations but creates Meteion and her sisters soley for his own goals. And he sents them out into the unknown, all on their own, when Meteion cant even stand a simple argument. Never thought how it would feel for them, to fly around the vast space of the universe all on their own. Never really thought about the situation that they could find tragedy. So utterly naive in that regards.

Naive and desperate I think. He did the interplanetary equivalent of a message in a bottle, and boy did that backfire.

[Absimiliard]

The fact that Lahabrea created multiple failed beings, whose destinies were to remain locked away and forgotten, for nothing else other than a desire for accomplishment, doesn’t speak well to their priorities.

Bear in mind that Lahabrea was considered a nutjob even back then. He was just very good at what he did.

[KariTheFox]

I think it's a correct (or at least valid) reading that Hermes was, in some way, not neurotypical or mentally healthy. He was fundamentally not thinking in the same ways as everyone else around him. I don't know what, if anything, I'd diagnose him with (a lot of people say depression, I don't think so), but I feel like modern Earth would find ways to help him cope with that and figure himself out.

...but he wasn't here with us, he was in Amaurot, a civilization that values conformity to an insane degree and isn't very good at grasping actual problems or alternative thoughts. I can't imagine that's a civilization with a terribly strong concept of mental health, so I'm not surprised at all that he wouldn't be inclined to share the feelings he knows aren't common. There's probably nowhere safe and understanding to even talk about it, and even if there is, I don't see Amaurot being a place that would treat someone well when they learn they're getting psychiatric help.

It's worth pointing out that Amaurotine civilization is based heavily on the ideal society described in Plato's Republic. Along with the idea of being ruled by enlightened philosopher kings who would guide and ensure the city would prosper to benefit all (sounds kind of like the convocation). Another idea is that it is best if people take on the profession that they are best suited for, and if you are working in the field that suits you best, you will be happy, as a matter of axiomatic fact. And if the whole city is happy, then everyone on an individual basis will be happy.

Hermes contradicts this idea, by all appearances he appears to be highly talented and well respected by the researchers at Elpis, and loves his work and creations very dearly, he seems quite suited for the job. But he isn't happy. Amaurotine culture cannot reconcile that fact with how they believe happiness ought to operate. (And if I recall correctly, either Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus suggest that maybe Hermes is not suited for working at Elpis, when they sense he might be unhappy.) To me it's not just that there is no strong concept of mental health and they value conformity, but that there are fundamental premises of the society Hermes lives in that make it impossible for him to even consider getting help. After all, there must be something wrong with him if he isn't happy.

[Iscah]

I have a really hard time seeing that he was like a daughter to him. He was quite fine with sending his "daughters" out into the unknown space, where they would have to travel and do everything alone.

On this point you need to differentiate the individual Meteion from the overall project.

He created the flock of Meteia and sent them into space as messengers, perhaps immediately with no time to get attached to them first (or identify the issues with their empthic abilities).

He kept one – and when she is an individual not connected to the hive mind he treats her like a daughter.

[vehere]

On this point you need to differentiate the individual Meteion from the overall project.

He created the flock of Meteia and sent them into space as messengers, perhaps immediately with no time to get attached to them first (or identify the issues with their empthic abilities).

He kept one – and when she is an individual not connected to the hive mind he treats her like a daughter.

So you're saying he had a favorite.

I mean, none of this makes him look like a good loving parent who truly cared for Meteion or the Meteia as individuals/thinking feeling beings in their own right. He still prioritized getting his answers over comforting Meteion, and still sent them off to become lonely despairing entities far away at the end of the universe when he didn't get the answer he wanted and decided that Man should be judged as it has judged other living beings, using the Meteia as tool in which to do such even though this would also lead to their destruction too.

Lets not forget that Meteion was in pain. Hermes did not care. He did not even care about 'his' Meteion being subsumed into the despairing hivemind and possibly lost forever. Because he got what he wanted out of them by that point.