[SPOILERS] Hermes is a hypocrite.

[Ilenya]

There's also more than a little hypocrisy in saying you want to make the test fair while simultaneously denying the people being tested both the knowledge of the test and any fighting chance of passing said test.

This is late and bothering me, but this is how testing in Elpis *worked.* The test he was having Meteion do was as if she was one of the testers in Elpis, and humans were the ones being tested.

[Lauront]

This is late and bothering me, but this is how testing in Elpis *worked.* The test he was having Meteion do was as if she was one of the testers in Elpis, and humans were the ones being tested.

Along with everything else in her path, as well as his supposedly beloved creations. So the notion of "fairness" here may be a warped one from the outset - little more than him being vindictive for the sake of it. Besides, their concern was not so much fairness as it was whether the creation would fit well with other life forms on the star and enrich it in their view. The star itself chose whether to ascend these beings to living beings or not by granting souls to those that fit its criteria. His test is a caricature of theirs. You can see the extremity of his stance when he exhorts concepts (lykaones) where they've already exhausted multiple means of rendering them more peaceful (e.g. even bringing Kairos into it to allow them a new slate for testing, and still indulging him over and above this) to live even if it served no purpose for the star, to hate if they so wished it. His real problem is identifying purpose in life, and death as what comes after fulfilment of that purpose, which he again brings up when the topic of his mentor's return to the Underworld comes up, and which resurfaces when he, as Amon, is confronted with Xande's nihilistic views derived from his death. He found fault in his people's views on creations but I honestly struggle to see his views as any different to those of a rather more extreme vegan/animal rights type vs a society which does not share those views for a variety of reasons. I also have a suspicion that he cares less about the creations but that his work led him to obsess over these questions to the point that he began applying them to himself and his own kind, and descended further into madness. It's not like Elpis sidequests show that the ancients didn't exhibit a degree of empathy to the creations (some others as much as he, without the insane meltdowns when things didn't go their way), but it is of a kind as we display to animals, which we also put to all manner of uses solely for our own benefit... and they nonetheless entertain his requests and, again, as per the sidequests, are open to "better" ways of doing things. So this all seems like a vehicle for his own angst more than anything else.


His "test" is not much different to Fandaniel throwing the MC into the body of that Garlean soldier - a very similar manifestation of his cruelty, IMO. He is living out a vindictive fetish and is dissatisfied whatever the answer he gets. He (Amon, not Hermes) conflates living with suffering to be met only with death at its end, bemoaning man's cruelty and eventually, in spite of some doubt, spits out this answer:

Amon: That is my truth. My answer to the question, and yet...
Amon: ...Even as the words pass my lips, I am filled with doubt.
Amon: Has my search reached its end?
Amon: Was this the only way?
Amon: After all these years...
Amon: Is this the answer I was hoping for?

[...]

Asahi: Now you are at my mercy. I shall drag us both into oblivion, and you will never see the fulfillment of your magnum opus!
Asahi: Even should you be reborn, your desperate search for answers must start again!
Amon: Heh... And what might that be?
Amon: My wish is all but granted─to die and take you all with me.

So I'd take any claims of "fairness" here with a pinch of salt. He simply cannot reconcile some contradictory facets of man's behaviour, be it ancient or sundered (the latter of which being where his observations as Amon derive - the Allagans had a cruel streak but my view is he'd find this wherever he looked), nor could he stomach the concept of death, and deemed life bereft of purpose in the face of these issues tormenting his mind, and this appears to be a propensity of his very soul.

Hermes hypocrisy is pretty clear early on in how he treats Meteion (and her sisters). He says he wants her to experience life, but is dismissive to her desire for a sweet because "you can't eat, and besides, you only like that because I like it". You would think he could have made it possible for her to eat things for fun, rather than doing it for nourishment, but it doesn't occur to him to do it. When Meteion wants to cheer him up, she asks for your help with the flowers. While he is appreciative, he is still in the end rather dismissive of the gesture on Meteion's part.

This isn't getting into how he sent what were essentially a bunch of beings with the emotional maturity of toddlers into space to gets answers he wanted, with completely untested abilities that ended up causing feedback loops. Or how, despite Meteion being obviously distressed and in pain, wanting to hide and avoid giving her report, Hermes disregarded this. He did not care that she was in pain and did not want to tell him. He wanted his answers. When the answers turned out to be nothing like he expected, he didn't consider trying to calm the Meteia to try convincing them that even if there were many dead worlds, it does not mean all hope is lost. No, instead he decided to let the Meteia have their suicidal cosmic temper tantrum and doomed his own people.

Basically Hermes is an abusive parent, where a child is a means to an end rather than a fully living being with their own thoughts and dreams to them. Yes, these kinds of parents often think and believe deeply that they're doing what's best for the kid but it ends up being the exact opposite.

Yep, this too.

[Shuuli]

To me most of the people on Elpis were quite flawed... as Metion pointed out at the end of the dungeon by bringing examples to all 3 of the ancients who were with us.

But not just that. The more we spent time there and the more people we meet, none of them seemed like the kind and reasonable shades that Emet has created in ShB. The EW raids also make this clear by how some of them failed to be good parents as well...

To me, their stories seem more and more like the Greek gods. And uh boi, if you know anything about them you know they had some very dubious shit going on.

Since it was planted in our head by Emet in ShB that they are perfect (cause I really think he thought their world is perfect) it might be hard to see for some, how badly they fail to be these "perfect" beings.

[vehere]

SNIP.

You misunderstand. A parent can absolutely believe they are doing what they think is best for their child and still end up being abusive. One of my friends had her entire life plotted out for her at birth because her parents thought becoming a doctor was what was best for her. She never had a choice outside of being allowed to choose an instrument to focus on and what kind of doctor she wanted to be. They would threaten to take away financial support if she changed majors. She's a doctor now and also in therapy. Her parents admit no wrong doing and now demand she gets married, they also ask her for money and say she *owes* them for supporting her through college.

They think what they did was what was best for her, but in the end it turns out there was a degree of self-serving in their demands.

Hermes is like that. Meteion never had a choice in what she could be, for all the other things Hermes says it doesn't change that she was first and foremost created to serve his desire for answers.

Not getting into what a bad idea it is to send what are essentially toddlers into space with no prior research on what their abilities can do or on what they may find.

Hermes didn't send probes which could send back information. He sent living, feeling,thinking beings without a single regard as to what would happen if they found dead worlds.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Yes, she sundered the world after the End of Days had come...and the Amaurotians chose the wrong path. They "gave up on the future" because they were going to sacrifice all new souls born to bring back the ones sacrificed to Zodiark originally.

Something I’m gonna call out here is that there’s a difference here between EW and SHB.
In SHB their dispute was over the very vague “new life” to go restore their people from inside Zodiark. But this stage was supposed to come after the world was revived. See here:

In EW it shows her walking up to randos while the sky’s on fire. This can’t be at the same point in time, especially because SHB text says they were planning this stage after the world was bursting with vitality… they’re sacrificing (themselves) while it’s on fire in the EW scene. Does it seem like it’s bursting with vitality? So to me that looks more like the sacrifices to restore the planet. EW as a whole seems like it’s shifting the dispute she had with the other ancients to “we need suffering”.

Anyway she only knows it’s the “wrong” path because of knowledge she won’t share with anyone. Their world was very close to destroyed and most of their people wiped out. So she strolls out, telling them suffering is necessary. As a civilisation, they had managed to achieve peace and prosperity and had a method to restore things through Zodiark… she’s not really doing anything but offering platitudes. She comes across as extremely tone deaf, because she’s not giving any good reasons, even if she has some. So no, I don’t think she gave them a fair chance lmao

If that isn't "giving up on the future", I don't know what is.

Sundering your entire race.

We stoped the End of Days. Venat's plan was succesful. Now, yes, she could have just said "there is some birb girl, go kill her" and maybe that would have stopped the End of Days, but it would have done nothing to change the systemic problems with their society. The Ancients were already broken, and their obsession in restoring their paradise was folly.

Yep, and even the Scions were shocked by how chasing perfection could lead to that but they still want a “brighter tomorrow”, they still want to minimise suffering. In the future, the Source could forget all these lessons and pursue the same objective. What you’re telling me is that if she told the ancients all of this, explained why she believed it, they’d just ignore it and press on? Maybe, maybe not. But I’d like to see her try.
By the way, her plan had plenty of risks and could’ve failed completely… it’s why she had the hopeless escape plan as an alternative. Things could’ve gone the way of G’raha’s timeline… and in the end even then she needed Emet’s help to get it all right.

[Shuuli]

Something I’m gonna call out here is that there’s a difference here between EW and SHB.
In SHB their dispute was over the very vague “new life” to go restore their people from inside Zodiark. But this stage was supposed to come after the world was revived. See here:

What you see in ShB is not the true Hyth. It is a shade created by Emet. It has his ideas and his memory of the events. It can be inconsistent to actually what happened in EW.

But I 100% agree, she had knowledge she should have shared, she should not have decided the whole humanity's fate cause she thought its the best... I love her, but I completely find her ways the wrong there. Not saying Zodiark summoning was the best way, but they could have done so much more if she shared info in time with her peers.

[Alleluia]

To be fair to Hermes, I don't think he was being dismissive of Meteion's part in the flower gesture when he said "Or if you only did this b/c Meteion asked you to." That was more him leaving his mind an opening to comprehend why this complete stranger was helping him with his feelings. They could either genuinely care about his wellbeing (option 1 that he allows) or they could just be appeasing Meteion (option 2), which in itself could be b/c they like her and are helpful or could just be b/c she badgered them. Its not a statement on Meteion's involvement, its a statement on Hermes' mental state. If anything, it indicates that Amaurotine society in general has been dismissive enough of Hermes' emotional struggles that he feels the need to hedge his bets when actually faced with our concern over them, to avoid getting his hopes too high.

Hermes is a bad dad, but I don't think that was an instance of it. Don't get me started on allowing Meteion to run off to wallow in nihilism (actually *aiding* her) rather than pulling himself together to reassure her, though. Hermes' weakness rendered him unable to be there for her when she needed him most.

I am ambivalent about the man, cus I understand that depression is hard and you can't just get past it. And he does seem to have been alone in his struggles, with a lot of the other Ancients being book smart and emotionally naive/shallow, if some commentary from some of the sidequesting is any indication. Having the concerns he had and being shot down all the time, essentially (unintentionally) being gaslit about them to the point where he wonders if he's the aberration... I can see why he was cracking.

But at the same time, you had a job to do and you did the opposite, Hermes, and a little girl (multiple little girls?) suffered for it. Not to mention the rest of us.

[vehere]

Honestly, it may just be because I forgot but I feel like... Hermes just didn't talk very much about his own emotional issues with anyone? Because we know the Ancients could feel grief (see Eric) and that there were some sort of problems going on which required a position like Azem's to be made. So while things might have been fine in Elpis itself, elsewhere could have been a different story. But since Hermes largely stayed in Elpis as far as I can tell, and was apparently a very good boss/leader that his people respected, he didn't really have much of a chance to find anyone who could share in his doubts. He just assumed nobody would really understand how he felt and did nothing to reach out or discuss his feelings with people.

Maybe if he had just left Elpis for a few weeks he could have found someone who could have understood him. But then again maybe he would be the type who would insist nobody really understands his questions and would have turned away from such a person. Who knows!

[Lauront]

What you see in ShB is not the true Hyth. It is a shade created by Emet. It has his ideas and his memory of the events. It can be inconsistent to actually what happened in EW.

It'd also require Elidibus's post-defeat SoS testimony, and Ere our Curtain Falls, to be wrong, because they both detail the same conflict.

[Alleluia]

Honestly, it may just be because I forgot but I feel like... Hermes just didn't talk very much about his own emotional issues with anyone? Because we know the Ancients could feel grief (see Eric) and that there were some sort of problems going on which required a position like Azem's to be made. So while things might have been fine in Elpis itself, elsewhere could have been a different story. But since Hermes largely stayed in Elpis as far as I can tell, and was apparently a very good boss/leader that his people respected, he didn't really have much of a chance to find anyone who could share in his doubts. He just assumed nobody would really understand how he felt and did nothing to reach out or discuss his feelings with people.

Maybe if he had just left Elpis for a few weeks he could have found someone who could have understood him. But then again maybe he would be the type who would insist nobody really understands his questions and would have turned away from such a person. Who knows!

I don't think its ever explicitly stated that he tried to talk to people, so I guess I'm making an assumption there. We know the elpis flowers didn't change color from white for anyone other than him (as far as he knew anyway), and are left to assume that was accurate and encompassing. The overall impression I was left with was of a man who had been dealing with this for a while, had tried to talk to others, and no one else understood. I got this from how he talked about his mentor, who was gonna die to free up the seat. And how he was apparently willing to speak his concerns to Hades and Hyth, despite not knowing them well or long, which leaves me to think its not that Hermes just didn't talk to people.

Like, we know he had it boiling inside him. My logic is that it *had* to have come out in past conversations. I might be being overly charitable in my interpretation of him, but I do think we're meant to assume he has good reason to think that most other Ancients see nothing wrong with society's views on death and stewardship of new creations, rather than it just being in his head.