*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Vyrerus]

You'll be disappointed

The Scions weren't transformed. They were influencing Dynamis as well. That's how they and we combatted Meteion. They weren't overwhelmed on the soul level. Their bodies were dissipated, but their souls went on to alter Ultima Thule's environs in an active struggle until we broke Meteion's will by having Hyth and Hades create Elpis flowers. Once that was achieved, all that their souls had been struggling for was evinced into true being. Their bodies were then brought back, and their souls back into them by Hydaelyn's magic on the Azem stone calling. As far as all the other people in Ultima Thule, I'm not sure on that. I don't remember anything concrete about it, but it's been a minute, and I'm not even half way done with my second playthrough still. Even if they are though, it's a farcry from returning their entire civilization, planet, and population to their own cycles if they even have those.


As far as Blasphemies go, they merely seem to be influenced by the dominant personality in the being they're transformed from at the time Dynamis overwhelms them. This mostly goes into explain why they act the way they do as Blasphemies, as well as expound on the past of the characters intertwined with each Blasphemy. The most interesting bit of note is that a partial primal imparts the personality of one of the Heaven's Ward onto Profane Fafnir. The man underneath all of that doesn't seem to be part of the Blasphemy at all. The healer, tank, melee, and ranged physical all have regular(more or less) people transformed with differing scenarios that impart that the deep seated desires of the person transformed carry into the Blasphemy. There was nothing to suggest they return to live anew. Nothing to cast doubt on what was stated during the events of Thavnair and Palaka's Stand.

[Cleretic]

It's not hard to quantify what Venat did as genocide at all. To even deny that's what it was is to literally discount the Ancients' lives.

This argument is so cyclical that exactly the two of us have had exactly this same sub-argument once before.

Even if you do count the Sundering as a genocide, you have to count the Ascians as:
A: before the Sundering planning at least one act of mass extermination against the entire mission statement of their civilization (calling it 'genocide' is unclear without knowing their selection process for the third sacrifice, but bad either way)
B: going on to perform fourteen acts of confirmed genocide (all seven successful Calamities destroying a shard, all but one Calamity also decimating the Source, plus the Thirteenth)
C: planning to perform at least twenty-eight genocides in total, likely more (all Rejoinings counting both shard and Source, plus the sacrifice to fix the Thirteenth, plus the sacrifice to remake the Ancients)

Again, I reiterate my actual angle: At the time of the Sundering, both sides were making morally dubious decisions for high-minded reasons, to the point where, if I were an Ancient at the time, I don't know if I'd have sided with either. But afterwards, we learn that Venat was factually correct, and also that the Convocation would be completely okay with doing the same morally dubious thing Venat did over two dozen times, each one in a much less dubious context.

[OhNooo]

I'm in the camp of 'neither bad people, both did bad things, but one side ended up correct and the other ended up committing genocides'. Which, granted, is a little wordy, but is the stance the game itself takes.

The way I see it is, one ended up winning and one ended up losing. Simple. It doesn't matter who was right or wrong. If someone can find a way to win by being sneaky and forming a coup, well then the losers can whine all they want but in the end they lost. Isn't that how life is anyway? There's a lot of injustice in the world that happens just because someone used money, power or some type of strategy to implement their plans. For an ancient just living their life who has nothing to do with the convocation's choices, Venat is a villain. To the sundered defending their lives, the Ascians are the villains. If the Ascians had won, the story would be told in a different way and they could be viewed as heroes. All that matters in the end is who wins, then they can write history the way they want.

[Rannie]

The way I see it is, one ended up winning and one ended up losing. Simple. It doesn't matter who was right or wrong. If someone can find a way to win by being sneaky and forming a coup, well then the losers can whine all they want but in the end they lost. Isn't that how life is anyway? There's a lot of injustice in the world that happens just because someone used money, power or some type of strategy to implement their plans. For an ancient just living their life who has nothing to do with the convocation's choices, Venat is a villain. To the sundered defending their lives, the Ascians are the villains. If the Ascians had won, the story would be told in a different way and they could be viewed as heroes. All that matters in the end is who wins, then they can write history the way they want.

I wouldn't say that was a certainty however, it's just a guess nothing more, for all we know there were ancients just living their lives and not giving a damn and when the sundering occurred they just shrugged it off and continued living. The fact is we don't know and saying things like that is just conjecture.

[OhNooo]

I wouldn't say that was a certainty however, it's just a guess nothing more, for all we know there were ancients just living their lives and not giving a damn and when the sundering occurred they just shrugged it off and continued living. The fact is we don't know and saying things like that is just conjecture.

I highly doubt someone just dusts themself off, shrugs and just walks off after getting sundered. It looks like it's a painful thing going by that dramatization from Venat's POV.

[Rannie]

I highly doubt someone just dusts themself off, shrugs and just walks off after getting sundered. It looks like it's a painful thing going by that dramatization from Venat's POV.

You'd be very surprised at how there are a lot of people who if they didn't know wouldn't care or feel that as long as they are alive it's all tha matters

[Lauront]

I'm not going to fight you on what the presented themes are, as you say they are readily apparent. However, 'themes' being apparent is not a valid excuse for being needlessly murky on what is pretty inarguably the most important event in the entire world's lore. To put all the Ancients in a box and tuck them away to be forgotten by history because the themes said so does not make for anything even approaching compelling. The Ancients were not a hivemind. They were not some embodiment of the past. Our past was their present. They were living, breathing people with friends, families, hopes and aspirations, and certainly not all of them thought in the way the Convocation and Zodiark's faithful did. It was described as the biggest divide in their history. Even Elidibus himself lost the will to continue fighting for the thing you say they represent absolutely. What of these people? We know full well the Convocation was misguided, but what gave Venat the right to strip everyone of the lives they had?

Just because a choice is symbolic or thematic, does not make it right. And we should not have to accept it as absolute just because we're told we should.

It's worth noting, according to the source texts on this, even the Convocation was initially divided on this matter. IMO not being given all the info here about what really drove Venat's concerns did not help, because their own intent was to safeguard the star's well-being.

I highly doubt someone just dusts themself off, shrugs and just walks off after getting sundered. It looks like it's a painful thing going by that dramatization from Venat's POV.

Same. Their cut lifespan alone would result in them dropping dead not too long after. But hey, maybe they'd even thank her for it and praise Hydaelyn for doing it to them...

[Rannie]

It's worth noting, according to the source texts on this, even the Convocation was initially divided on this matter. IMO not being given all the info here about what really drove Venat's concerns did not help, because their own intent was to safeguard the star's well-being.

We did only get two sides of the story and neither of them were completely unbiased. I wish we could find some type of unbiased crystal that had recorded everything

[Cleretic]

I highly doubt someone just dusts themself off, shrugs and just walks off after getting sundered. It looks like it's a painful thing going by that dramatization from Venat's POV.

While I personally suspect there was some amount of stress and strain with the Sundering (I'm not sure I'd call it 'pain' so much as just 'so weird you need to sit down for a while'), that part of the post-Elpis scene is when it goes from 'literal but abridged retelling' to 'extremely figurative', so it's hard to use it as evidence. Personally I read it as 'after the Sundering there was pain', which is significantly different to 'the Sundering hurt'.

[Lauront]

Yes, but bias is scarcely relevant when post-defeat Elidibus is describing what caused him to emerge.