*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[SpectrePhantasia]

I don't know, I believe the ancients fully intended to sacrifice sentient beings with souls for the third sacrifice, but I still find them to be sympathetic.

I'm not going to fight you on what the presented themes are, as you say they are readily apparent. However, 'themes' being apparent is not a valid excuse for being needlessly murky on what is pretty inarguably the most important event in the entire world's lore. To put all the Ancients in a box and tuck them away to be forgotten by history because the themes said so does not make for anything even approaching compelling. The Ancients were not a hivemind. They were not some embodiment of the past. Our past was their present. They were living, breathing people with friends, families, hopes and aspirations, and certainly not all of them thought in the way the Convocation and Zodiark's faithful did. It was described as the biggest divide in their history. Even Elidibus himself lost the will to continue fighting for the thing you say they represent absolutely. What of these people? We know full well the Convocation was misguided, but what gave Venat the right to strip everyone of the lives they had?

Just because a choice is symbolic or thematic, does not make it right. And we should not have to accept it as absolute just because we're told we should.

[Rulakir]

However, 'themes' being apparent is not a valid excuse for being needlessly murky on what is pretty inarguably the most important event in the entire world's lore.

The impression I've gotten is they wrote themselves into a corner in ShB, one which they might not have recognized until they read players discuss it. The "new life" angle is what was presented in ShB (and mostly dropped in EW), so either the Convocation was mistaken about what Venat's motives were or that was the reason she was giving people.

I consider the second sacrifice the more interesting one. Zodiark had to restore the world after the Final Days. We're given no indication Venat objected to this, perhaps it was seen as being necessary after what we hear and see of the devastation it caused. We're told in Elpis that the Ancients can't create souls, so it calls into question whether Zodiark would be able to either. What exactly was he asked to do? Were it to make the planet inhabitable again, then the priority should've been on the flora and fauna necessary to re-establish an ecosystem. It doesn't make sense for the Ancients to give their lives for other humanoids unless they were incredibly altruistic.

Perhaps they asked Zodiark to return the world to how it was before the Final Days and, even then, it seems he was only capable of bringing back life in its infancy. Any newborns, whether human or animal, would've had to have been raised by the Ancients, which would certainly lend itself to them being loathe to sacrifice them later. Even taking humanoids out of the equation, you couldn't convince me to offer up cats I'd raised from kittens to be sacrificed. However, I'm sure I could find people who would if it meant releasing their departed loved ones.

Speaking of which, they wrote the souls of the sacrificed were trapped within Zodiark, which also changes the debate. It wasn't just about bringing them back to life, it was that their souls weren't even free to return to the star and a big deal is made about this being a fundamental part of their beliefs. I'm not religious myself, but I can only imagine that's like saying your loved ones can't go to Heaven, they're trapped indefinitely in purgatory, but you have the means to free them if you're willing to make a trade. This would be a difficult choice for many.

[SpectrePhantasia]

Whether or not Sundering counts as killing is irrelevant. She destroyed their civilization, erased everything about who they were, memories and all, expunged their entire culture and lives from history, (much as Emet wanted to do to the WoL, might I add) doomed them to living lifespans that were a fraction of their normal, and subjected them to more frail lives than ever before. Even if you want to veil Sundering itself as something different from killing, even though it is killing in everything but name, it doesn't matter because what the Ancients found to be a far more terrible thing than death itself is a life that is ended before the person can fulfill their desires, which is the exact kind of fate she subjects them to.

The impression I've gotten is they wrote themselves into a corner in ShB, one which they might not have recognized until they read players discuss it. The "new life" angle is what was presented in ShB (and mostly dropped in EW), so either the Convocation was mistaken about what Venat's motives were or that was the reason she was giving people.

Yeah I think there was lot more potential in what Shadowbringers wrote this dilemma to be, and was far more nuanced than what Endwalker tries to make of it afterwards. The second sacrifice is interesting I agree, and the lack of further explanation onto what occurred during the original Final Days is exactly what I'm talking about. In the end we don't know for certain what EITHER side is really fighting for. That is a problem. Boiling such a complex issue down to the simplicity that Endwalker tried to frame it as really left a bad taste in my mouth personally.

[Rulakir]

Boiling such a complex issue down to the simplicity that Endwalker tried to frame it as really left a bad taste in my mouth personally.

As often as people say we had all of ShB to learn the Ascians' side, we find out in EW that it was entirely without context. Instead of seeing what really happened in EW, we get a dramatization of events from Venat's POV. Elidibus, the person who probably would know the most since he was acting mediator, conveniently has memory issues, is disposed of before we travel to the past, and doesn't make an appearance again within the MSQ. (It remains to be seen what, if anything, we learn in Pandemonium.) I doubt we'll ever know the truth of it.

[Lauront]

I'm not going to fight you on what the presented themes are, as you say they are readily apparent. However, 'themes' being apparent is not a valid excuse for being needlessly murky on what is pretty inarguably the most important event in the entire world's lore. To put all the Ancients in a box and tuck them away to be forgotten by history because the themes said so does not make for anything even approaching compelling. The Ancients were not a hivemind. They were not some embodiment of the past. Our past was their present. They were living, breathing people with friends, families, hopes and aspirations, and certainly not all of them thought in the way the Convocation and Zodiark's faithful did. It was described as the biggest divide in their history. Even Elidibus himself lost the will to continue fighting for the thing you say they represent absolutely. What of these people? We know full well the Convocation was misguided, but what gave Venat the right to strip everyone of the lives they had?

Just because a choice is symbolic or thematic, does not make it right. And we should not have to accept it as absolute just because we're told we should.

It's worth noting, according to the source texts on this, even the Convocation was initially divided on this matter. IMO not being given all the info here about what really drove Venat's concerns did not help, because their own intent was to safeguard the star's well-being.

I highly doubt someone just dusts themself off, shrugs and just walks off after getting sundered. It looks like it's a painful thing going by that dramatization from Venat's POV.

Same. Their cut lifespan alone would result in them dropping dead not too long after. But hey, maybe they'd even thank her for it and praise Hydaelyn for doing it to them...

[Rannie]

It's worth noting, according to the source texts on this, even the Convocation was initially divided on this matter. IMO not being given all the info here about what really drove Venat's concerns did not help, because their own intent was to safeguard the star's well-being.

We did only get two sides of the story and neither of them were completely unbiased. I wish we could find some type of unbiased crystal that had recorded everything

[OhNooo]

I wish we could find some type of unbiased crystal that had recorded everything

Agreed! I've been wanting something like that for the longest time. I mean even just from rl experience, being the "mediator", I tend to be between friends, there have been so many arguments where people are blaming each other for things and then a non-biased 3rd party or a snapchat video sets the record straight about what happened.

There's still so much that I want explained about this story and the fact that this is literally the end of the arc is just crazy to me. How can you do this to us SE lol