Tank healing is to high

[Risvertasashi]

as a war player bloodwhetting just feels so good, a nerf right now would be like a stab in the heart. being able to solo some raid content is like one of the hidden gems of a mmorpgs metaverse. for dungeons you still get plenty of dmg from the adds, timing and aligning still count. for savage the shield half pops right away but offers good mitigation. it isn't game breaking but the d*ck wave is pretty high atm

I'm sorry but... when a tank can solo tank busters, party stacks, and literally every mechanic in current content that's not savage, how is that anything but game breaking?

It would be one thing if it was level unsync, but again, this is current content and not even max ilvl.

The lengths people are going to defend tanks being so brokenly overpowered is absurd. I get it, it's fun and cool and awesome to be OP. I would love it if I could take a healer into current 8-person content and solo it and shrug off tankbusters and party stacks alike, or even a DPS. It would feel awesome for sure. But for any role, this really isn't good for the game overall.

[ForteNightshade]

I'm sorry but... when a tank can solo tank busters, party stacks, and literally every mechanic in current content that's not savage, how is that anything but game breaking?

It would be one thing if it was level unsync, but again, this is current content and not even max ilvl.

The lengths people are going to defend tanks being so brokenly overpowered is absurd. I get it, it's fun and cool and awesome to be OP. I would love it if I could take a healer into current 8-person content and solo it and shrug off tankbusters and party stacks alike, or even a DPS. It would feel awesome for sure. But for any role, this really isn't good for the game overall.

The issue isn't necessarily Warrior or the tanks themselves but how comically low content is tuned. Dungeons simply don't deal enough damage to offset the mitigation and sustain tools at our disposal. Even normal modes lack outgoing damage ala the recent Warrior solo of P1N. This all roots back to the same fundamental problem: SE's refusal to make content below EX difficulty anything beyond a participation award.

Taking away the healing aspect of tanks just neutered their gameplay into being glorified DPS who occasionally press a mitigation button. If they even need said mitigation in the first place. What needs to be addressed is the core issue so we aren't reducing another role to essentially being a gimped DPS. In fact, fixing the outgoing damage will only benefit both tanks and healers.

[Lyth]

Taking away the healing aspect of tanks just neutered their gameplay into being glorified DPS who occasionally press a mitigation button. If they even need said mitigation in the first place. What needs to be addressed is the core issue so we aren't reducing another role to essentially being a gimped DPS. In fact, fixing the outgoing damage will only benefit both tanks and healers.

This is correct. There's a lot of focus on what feels good in the short term over what is engaging and interesting in the long term. Difficulty depends on both your mitigation toolkit and how hard the content pushes you to actually use it. The imbalance comes from both sides.

It's not that the ability to solo some of the easier/older content itself is a bad thing. It can be fun, especially if there's an element of player skill that is involved. But as it becomes easier to do and more commonplace, it reflects problems with both the progressive inflation of our mitigation toolkits, as well as in fight tuning. Likewise, I think that healer ennui is another symptom of these two problems.

[Praesul]

I'm sorry but... when a tank can solo tank busters, party stacks, and literally every mechanic in current content that's not savage, how is that anything but game breaking?

It would be one thing if it was level unsync, but again, this is current content and not even max ilvl.

The lengths people are going to defend tanks being so brokenly overpowered is absurd. I get it, it's fun and cool and awesome to be OP. I would love it if I could take a healer into current 8-person content and solo it and shrug off tankbusters and party stacks alike, or even a DPS. It would feel awesome for sure. But for any role, this really isn't good for the game overall.

None of that is possible in the difficult content that's actually tightly tuned. If the devs wanted to make the content harder, they should have.

Again, make the damage threatening. Even if you nerf tank sustainability you know what sill still happen? Normal mode content will still be a stupidly easy slog where the healers can just throw out a couple of off GCDs every now and then and not worry about the tank at all anyway. What are you going to do then? Keep nerfing it until it feels awful playing the role? What incentive would I have to play a tank if our damage sucks (it's like 60% of the lowest DPS job's output compared to like HW where you could do 80% of a DPS output) but we're reliant on other roles to do anything? If the damage output on the role is fine (and I think it is for the most part other than the obvious issues with PLD being too low atm) then we get increased agency in return.

Literally no worse feeling in the world than getting dragged down by people because I as the tank can do NOTHING to increase our chances of success. Tanks have no raise, tanks on their own cannot meet DPS checks (of which there should be MORE of). The ONLY reason we can survive so well without the help of healers is because the devs tune the damage incredibly low on the vast, vast majority of content. Healers have all these extremely powerful healing tools that never get put to good use UNLESS their party messes up constantly, forcing more powerful resources out to make up for their deficiencies.

I remember progging T13 back in the day, and I remember getting hit by Akh Morn for the first time. THAT was an incredible feeling. It absolutely DESTROYED tanks back then, and the longer the fight went on the more help was needed to mitigate it. Tanks on their own could not CD through it with how frequent it came up and with how increasingly hard it hit. You needed Mantra, Convalesence, Storm's Path, Virus, Dragon Kick on top of tank CDs. These were not OPTIONAL tools for this, they are mandatory.

I want MORE of that, and I want a taste of it in casual content too. Bosses should hit harder, and I think healer players would enjoy using their tools more often too. Obviously not everything has to be minimum item level T13 Akh Morn levels of damage but come on.

[Risvertasashi]

-snip-

Two problems can exist at once. Yes, it would be nice if damage in regular content was tuned higher. (Been asking for that for more than half a decade now and it hasn't materialized)

But that doesn't change that the current tank kits are broken beyond belief. Even if SE does tune up damage in regular content, this is still a problem that needs to be fixed.

[Praesul]

Two problems can exist at once. Yes, it would be nice if damage in regular content was tuned higher. (Been asking for that for more than half a decade now and it hasn't materialized)

But that doesn't change that the current tank kits are broken beyond belief. Even if SE does tune up damage in regular content, this is still a problem that needs to be fixed.

Tanks kits are broken beyond belief somehow, but healer's aren't? They can literally heal even the hardest content in the game with planned out oGCDs while also dealing sizable damage (close to tanks in current content, higher than tanks in previous expansions) while also being able to raise and proving DPS increases. But tank kits are broken, not healers.

Yeah, right.

Increase the threat of damage, don't touch tank or healer toolkits at all in terms of power budget. You increase damage dealt to players, you fix both problems at once.

[ForteNightshade]

Two problems can exist at once. Yes, it would be nice if damage in regular content was tuned higher. (Been asking for that for more than half a decade now and it hasn't materialized)

But that doesn't change that the current tank kits are broken beyond belief. Even if SE does tune up damage in regular content, this is still a problem that needs to be fixed.

If we're going to go down that road. Why don't we also address the absurd amount of oGCD heals we have nowadays? That's also a huge factor in why content is so laughable. And why healers spend so little time using their GCDs on anything except damage. It's a combination of both roles being overpowered relative to the comically tuned content.

P3S is an excellent example of making outgoing damage threatening to the tanks. Even in normal, the OT gets absolutely shredded. Unfortunately, consistent damage like this is incredibly rare.

[Praesul]

If we're going to go down that road. Why don't we also address the absurd amount of oGCD heals we have nowadays? That's also a huge factor in why content is so laughable. And why healers spend so little time using their GCDs on anything except damage. It's a combination of both roles being overpowered relative to the comically tuned content.

P3S is an excellent example of making outgoing damage threatening to the tanks. Even in normal, the OT gets absolutely shredded. Unfortunately, consistent damage like this is incredibly rare.

The damage in P3 normal is so high, it's more threatening than the damage I take in P1S or P2S.

[Risvertasashi]

If we're going to go down that road. Why don't we also address the absurd amount of oGCD heals we have nowadays? That's also a huge factor in why content is so laughable. And why healers spend so little time using their GCDs on anything except damage. It's a combination of both roles being overpowered relative to the comically tuned content.

P3S is an excellent example of making outgoing damage threatening to the tanks. Even in normal, the OT gets absolutely shredded. Unfortunately, consistent damage like this is incredibly rare.

First point is a strawman argument.

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As for p3s, sure. Don't you see how absurd your argument is, though?

Hey if you do savage, and not even that but one of the last two fights. "Hey guys healers are absolutely needed in two of the 10 current trial/raid fights, you're absolutely not getting by without a healer in 20% of current content. Pay no attention to being complete deadweight in non-high end content...". Yep...

[ForteNightshade]

First point is a strawman argument.

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As for p3s, sure. Don't you see how absurd your argument is, though?

Hey if you do savage, and not even that but one of the last two fights. "Hey guys healers are absolutely needed in two of the 10 current trial/raid fights, you're absolutely not getting by without a healer in 20% of current content. Pay no attention to being complete deadweight in non-high end content...". Yep...

No it isn't.

You're essentially putting all the blame on tank sustain and mitigation being too high, thus impacting healer gameplay. I'm simply countering that by pointing out the sheer bevvy of healer oGCD is an equally if not bigger contributor factor to that same problem. To cite my original post, what does nerfing all the tank sustain accomplish? P1N will still remain a laughable joke for healers who will spam their nuke and nothing else. All that's changed is a reduction in tank's gameplay.

Regardless, did you actually read my argument? Because you missed this part:

P3S is an excellent example of making outgoing damage threatening to the tanks. Even in normal, the OT gets absolutely shredded. Unfortunately, consistent damage like this is incredibly rare.

The crux of my point is this design philosophy shouldn't be exclusive to Savage but featured in every level of content because it actually puts our kits to work, albeit still not to the extent it probably should. Once again, we're rooting back to the actual issue here: outgoing damage is embarrassingly low, and simply can't overcome both the toolkits tanks and healers possess. It's a mutual problem not an exclusive one.