What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Reinha]

Do you have evidence to support this claim? we never even get to see what would happen had the unsundered world continued to exist past its expiration date.

Did you skip Meteion's report? Every civilization that was powerful enough to change their world ended up killing each other, killing themselves or wishing to die. The ancients were well on their way to that same fate. Celebrating death, putting advancement above lives, human sacrifice and growing new life only for the purpose of destroying it. Even if they had found a way to defeat Endsinger, it would have only taken a faction of people to decide they want to advance their paradise with more human sacrifice to Zodiark, an idea many of the ancients were ok with.

Now, we are no longer powerful enough to self destruct. We are too weak to wipe out half of humanity, too hungry and stressed to be bored of living and too dependent on each other to consider human life worthless.

[tokinokanatae]

Did you skip Meteion's report? Every civilization that was powerful enough to change their world ended up killing each other, killing themselves or wishing to die.

If Meteion is correct about everything, why not just let her do her thing? Maybe you're right. Maybe the Ancients would have been a "bad" civilization and kept sacrificing people to Zodiark until the planet was doomed.

Or...

Maybe they would have adapted to life with Zodiark in a weird, but potentially harmless way? ("This group of people will sacrifice themselves to Zodiark and delay their return to the star for 1000 years to relieve the last batch of souls and allow them to return, etc, etc.")

Maybe they would have figured out a way to retrieve their loved ones without having to sacrifice at all. ("Just a few more years powering up this huge crystal to sacrifice and Zodiark will be self-sustaining without souls!")

Maybe they would have eventually even solved the Meteion problem.

It's weird to me that in an expansion that lauds the idea of never giving up hope, that even the "situations of despair" those other societies had fallen to--that the Scions attempt to answer in their sacrifices--there still might have been a way for them to live on and find happiness, ONLY the Ancients are subject to this bizarre, "nope, chuck them in the trash, they were done, the moment you go into a tailspin your plane is doomed to crash so you might as well let go of the controls entirely" reaction. I would put forth even if the Ancients were about to make a horrible mistake, they still had the right to MAKE that mistake. FFXIV is a game that puts forth the idea that as long as you don't give up, you can atone for horrible things. I believe even the Ancients at their worst could have still had better days ahead of them, just like every other single person or society we see in the game, including those in the Dead Ends.

[Reinha]

I would put forth even if the Ancients were about to make a horrible mistake, they still had the right to MAKE that mistake. FFXIV is a game that puts forth the idea that as long as you don't give up, you can atone for horrible things.

Venat was an Ancient like the rest of them. When you have power like that, every decision affects the fate of others. It took only one depressed Ancient to almost destroy the entire universe. If a bunch of Ancients had the right to sacrifice a bunch of unborn, unwilling lives to Zodiark, Venat also had the right to do what she did.

[ArcturusWhisper]

I am a latecomer to these discussions, I have never posted in the Forum before. But given the continuous proclamation that goes like "95% of players love it, who are you to object", I feel like it's my duty to detail my dissatisfaction, lest the fact that I am still paying my monthly subscription is taken by the developers as I am loving it.

It's weird to me that in an expansion that lauds the idea of never giving up hope, that even the "situations of despair" those other societies had fallen to--that the Scions attempt to answer in their sacrifices--there still might have been a way for them to live on and find happiness, ONLY the Ancients are subject to this bizarre, "nope, chuck them in the trash, they were done, the moment you go into a tailspin your plane is doomed to crash so you might as well let go of the controls entirely" reaction. I would put forth even if the Ancients were about to make a horrible mistake, they still had the right to MAKE that mistake. FFXIV is a game that puts forth the idea that as long as you don't give up, you can atone for horrible things. I believe even the Ancients at their worst could have still had better days ahead of them, just like every other single person or society we see in the game, including those in the Dead Ends.

This is exactly how I feel about the situation regarding the Ancients. Somehow they are singled out as the ONE group that doesn't deserve to hope, to live on. Somehow they alone deserved to be wiped out, everybody else deserve to persevere, but nope, not the Ancients. The most hilarious thing is that some people keep dismissing these opinions regarding Venat as "Ancient lovers just want to hate Venat". It couldn't be further from the truth in my case. Back in Shadowbringer, I was exactly those that want to stick game texts to the screen of those who couldn't stop gushing about how "perfect" the Ancient society was, so that they can properly read them. And yet here I am, despairing at people's ability to be consistent. Regardless of how "imperfect" that society was, regardless of what flaws they had, declaring that they deserved to be wiped out by one woman flies in the face of the morals of Shadowbringer.

5.0: No matter how imperfect, or flawed, people deserve to live.
6.0: lol nope, this particular group deserved to be wiped out for their flaws.

Seriously.

And the sad thing is I adored Venat so much at the beginning of Elpis. She's portrayed as this unconventional, but brave, kind, and adventurous woman who loves people. I wish I can get that Venat back.

[Edit] I forgot, I agreed completely with people that just by wiping her memory together with Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus, a lot of this could already be prevented. Or just not do this time-travel at all, use the Echo! I don't know why they chose the worse possible way to go about it.

[Solarra]

Back in Shadowbringer, I was exactly those that want to stick game texts to the screen of those who couldn't stop gushing about how "perfect" the Ancient society was, so that they can properly read them. And yet here I am, despairing at people's ability to be consistent. Regardless of how "imperfect" that society was, regardless of what flaws they had, declaring that they deserved to be wiped out by one woman flies in the face of the morals of Shadowbringer.

5.0： No matter how imperfect, or flawed, people deserve to live.
6.0: lol nope, this particular group deserved to be wiped out for their flaws.

Indeed, Ancient society in ShB did seem less perfect than it did in EW, if you talked to the NPCs in Amaurot. The instance when our party is mistaken for children and warned that it would be best to don robes as they were probably being watched was particularly chilling.
Yet, there was no further development of this idea and Venat removing her mask in the EW short story is clearly not treated as a major infraction.

Had we been presented with a society where every action was watched and deviation from the norm had dire consequences, it might have been easier to accept Venat's actions. Instead the EW story presents us with a society closely resembling our own, only in some respects better. E.g. Hermes' rejection of society's norms is met with attempts at understanding and does not prevent him being promoted to the highest office.


My feelings about EW have made me look at the rest of the story and see that many of the flaws have been present from the start.

There has always been a tendency to tell rather than show.
E.g. We are told Minfillia does important work, but most of the time she's seen in her office alone doing nothing.
We are told Tartaru prevented undesireables from joining the scions, but we never see her doing that, she simply checks your name is on the list and lets you in.
We are told Lyse is the best person to lead the Resistance, but we never see her doing much to justify this.

Pacing has often been off.
The Loporits getting so much attention is the latest example, but the pre-HW quests dragged painfully and the return to Uldah in HW, felt like a very unwelcome interruption to an exciting MSQ.

Fake deaths have been overused from HW onwards. And Scion plot-armour means we're probably stuck with them forever (can't sell as much merchandise if you kill them). I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they tried to revive Emet Selch at this point!

So, I'm not expecting anything better from this writing team in the future. The story is pretty good for an MMO, and there have been flashes of brilliance now and then, but overall I wouldn't say it's great literature. After ShB, I was expecting so much more from this story and for me, it totally failed to deliver.

[KageTokage]

Indeed, Ancient society in ShB did seem less perfect than it did in EW, if you talked to the NPCs in Amaurot. The instance when our party is mistaken for children and warned that it would be best to don robes as they were probably being watched was particularly chilling.

That was another case of...strange translation because it's worded much more mildly in the other languages and more along the lines of "people will think you're weird if you don't wear robes".

[ArcturusWhisper]

That was another case of...strange translation because it's worded much more mildly in the other languages and more along the lines of "people will think you're weird if you don't wear robes".

That's interesting! But I still think the ancient society in ShB has its clearly "imperfect" implications, even if not as chilling as the translation made it out to be. But regardless, as I said in my previous post, it's immaterial. Even if the ancients have even bigger flaws, it would still be nuts to do what Venat did to them. The entire premise of Shadowbringer is that "better" beings don't get to decide who deserves to live; and continued "existence" in a completely different form, with their memories and history and civilisation completely destroyed, is not something people would desire.

[ArcturusWhisper]

Indeed, Ancient society in ShB did seem less perfect than it did in EW, if you talked to the NPCs in Amaurot. The instance when our party is mistaken for children and warned that it would be best to don robes as they were probably being watched was particularly chilling.
Yet, there was no further development of this idea and Venat removing her mask in the EW short story is clearly not treated as a major infraction.

Had we been presented with a society where every action was watched and deviation from the norm had dire consequences, it might have been easier to accept Venat's actions. Instead the EW story presents us with a society closely resembling our own, only in some respects better. E.g. Hermes' rejection of society's norms is met with attempts at understanding and does not prevent him being promoted to the highest office.

Exactly. Some finer details of that society are chilling, and it is quite obvious that Emet-Selch doesn't see those because 1) it's his cherished society and 2) he's in his grief and obsession for 12000 years, which made for a rather compelling story. But even if they have continued with that aspect, I think I will still take issue with Venat basically hiding critical information from that society, instead of working to better it. Her decision would certainly be more palatable, but not by much in my view. Let's just take, for example, Eulmore. That's basically a degenerate and depraved society with very few redeeming qualities, but I would take issue if the protagonists' solution to make this society better is to just erase them and make a better society out of beings that arise from their ashes. That's different than if the protagonists have no choice but to wipe Eulmore out in say, an existential battle. But "wiping out a society in order to make it better" is just...nuts in my opinion.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they tried to revive Emet Selch at this point!

This is very much a possibility, though I pray so hard that they won't. It would just destroy his character. Let him rest in peace!

[Garet]

Did you skip Meteion's report? Every civilization that was powerful enough to change their world ended up killing each other, killing themselves or wishing to die. The ancients were well on their way to that same fate. Celebrating death, putting advancement above lives, human sacrifice and growing new life only for the purpose of destroying it. Even if they had found a way to defeat Endsinger, it would have only taken a faction of people to decide they want to advance their paradise with more human sacrifice to Zodiark, an idea many of the ancients were ok with.

Now, we are no longer powerful enough to self destruct. We are too weak to wipe out half of humanity, too hungry and stressed to be bored of living and too dependent on each other to consider human life worthless.

I do not think the Ascians were going the path the other planets did that made Meteion despair. Not yet anyway. Emet and Hydo said as much to Meterion when they argued with her. Both Emet and Hydo were still full of hope unlike Hermes who is easily depressed by his questions to life's purpose etc. This is the same hope that made emet help us against elidibus in Shadowbringer and finally in Endwalker along with hydo and their reclaimed memories.

[Nilroreo]

Did you skip Meteion's report? Every civilization that was powerful enough to change their world ended up killing each other, killing themselves or wishing to die. The ancients were well on their way to that same fate.

Maybe, maybe not. ultimately, we'll never know as they were never granted the opportunity to try despite one of their own having crucial information that could've saved them. Arguing that other worlds have fallen to despair therefore the ancients would've aswell isn't exactly a convincing argument imo.

Celebrating death

Hmm, I personally saw this a cultural thing. None of the ancients are ever shown coercing their peers into take their own lives. If anything, it seemed they fully respected and acknowleged that there exists a cycle of death and rebirth that they can't readily participate in unless they themselves opt in to killing themselves once they feel the time is right for them and they can pass on with any regrets.

putting advancement above lives

Lol tell this to those who run FATE trains across Elpis for hours on end.

human sacrifice and growing new life only for the purpose of destroying it.

I agree that this is an awful thing. It's just unfortunate that the story occasionally comes across as a tad tone deaf in regard to how it weighs similar potential tragedies.

I find that ideas of hope and despair are fascinating because the two can be used interchangeably depending on how you personally choose to perceive the actions of others. To us, the Ascians wanting to preserve that which was lost even if it results in the lives of anyone they can't identify with are seen as acts of evil and we attribute these actions to feelings of despair. Whereas with G'raha and the ironworks, we attribute their goal of condemning an entire timeline to nonexistence in pursuit of just one timeline where Wol lives on to feelings of hope. I personally don't view either of these two scenarios as any more or less just than the other, but the game clearly thinks otherwise.