What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[tokinokanatae]

Did you skip Meteion's report? Every civilization that was powerful enough to change their world ended up killing each other, killing themselves or wishing to die.

If Meteion is correct about everything, why not just let her do her thing? Maybe you're right. Maybe the Ancients would have been a "bad" civilization and kept sacrificing people to Zodiark until the planet was doomed.

Or...

Maybe they would have adapted to life with Zodiark in a weird, but potentially harmless way? ("This group of people will sacrifice themselves to Zodiark and delay their return to the star for 1000 years to relieve the last batch of souls and allow them to return, etc, etc.")

Maybe they would have figured out a way to retrieve their loved ones without having to sacrifice at all. ("Just a few more years powering up this huge crystal to sacrifice and Zodiark will be self-sustaining without souls!")

Maybe they would have eventually even solved the Meteion problem.

It's weird to me that in an expansion that lauds the idea of never giving up hope, that even the "situations of despair" those other societies had fallen to--that the Scions attempt to answer in their sacrifices--there still might have been a way for them to live on and find happiness, ONLY the Ancients are subject to this bizarre, "nope, chuck them in the trash, they were done, the moment you go into a tailspin your plane is doomed to crash so you might as well let go of the controls entirely" reaction. I would put forth even if the Ancients were about to make a horrible mistake, they still had the right to MAKE that mistake. FFXIV is a game that puts forth the idea that as long as you don't give up, you can atone for horrible things. I believe even the Ancients at their worst could have still had better days ahead of them, just like every other single person or society we see in the game, including those in the Dead Ends.

[Garet]

Did you skip Meteion's report? Every civilization that was powerful enough to change their world ended up killing each other, killing themselves or wishing to die. The ancients were well on their way to that same fate. Celebrating death, putting advancement above lives, human sacrifice and growing new life only for the purpose of destroying it. Even if they had found a way to defeat Endsinger, it would have only taken a faction of people to decide they want to advance their paradise with more human sacrifice to Zodiark, an idea many of the ancients were ok with.

Now, we are no longer powerful enough to self destruct. We are too weak to wipe out half of humanity, too hungry and stressed to be bored of living and too dependent on each other to consider human life worthless.

I do not think the Ascians were going the path the other planets did that made Meteion despair. Not yet anyway. Emet and Hydo said as much to Meterion when they argued with her. Both Emet and Hydo were still full of hope unlike Hermes who is easily depressed by his questions to life's purpose etc. This is the same hope that made emet help us against elidibus in Shadowbringer and finally in Endwalker along with hydo and their reclaimed memories.

[Nilroreo]

Did you skip Meteion's report? Every civilization that was powerful enough to change their world ended up killing each other, killing themselves or wishing to die. The ancients were well on their way to that same fate.

Maybe, maybe not. ultimately, we'll never know as they were never granted the opportunity to try despite one of their own having crucial information that could've saved them. Arguing that other worlds have fallen to despair therefore the ancients would've aswell isn't exactly a convincing argument imo.

Celebrating death

Hmm, I personally saw this a cultural thing. None of the ancients are ever shown coercing their peers into take their own lives. If anything, it seemed they fully respected and acknowleged that there exists a cycle of death and rebirth that they can't readily participate in unless they themselves opt in to killing themselves once they feel the time is right for them and they can pass on with any regrets.

putting advancement above lives

Lol tell this to those who run FATE trains across Elpis for hours on end.

human sacrifice and growing new life only for the purpose of destroying it.

I agree that this is an awful thing. It's just unfortunate that the story occasionally comes across as a tad tone deaf in regard to how it weighs similar potential tragedies.

I find that ideas of hope and despair are fascinating because the two can be used interchangeably depending on how you personally choose to perceive the actions of others. To us, the Ascians wanting to preserve that which was lost even if it results in the lives of anyone they can't identify with are seen as acts of evil and we attribute these actions to feelings of despair. Whereas with G'raha and the ironworks, we attribute their goal of condemning an entire timeline to nonexistence in pursuit of just one timeline where Wol lives on to feelings of hope. I personally don't view either of these two scenarios as any more or less just than the other, but the game clearly thinks otherwise.

[TaleraRistain]

At the end of Shadowbringers, G'raha, when asked by Y'shtola why he still lives despite us having averted the 8UC describes the situation as an "unexpected development." G'raha and his collaborators had every intention to carry out a plan they expected would result in the complete erasure of all lives on etherys, as well as the remaining shards that were in no way made privy to any of their plans, just because they couldn't live a reality in which the WoL was dead. The lives of an entire existence, not just one planet, but all of existence across an entire universe, snuffed out just to save one person. Please explain to me how the ancients planning to sacrifice just a singular planets worth of life is deemed the single most deplorable act across the games history.

This is absolutely disingenuous and false. The First Rejoining and Black Rose decimated both Aldenard and Ilsabard. There were survivors, in a broken and bleak world. The stories of the WoL gave them hope. It wasn't just Ironworks deciding for everyone. It was the survivors coming together and working toward that goal. And they worked on it for 200 years. 200 years in which nothing improved enough in their reality to weigh against that risky venture. They were looking to the past, no arguments there. But what future could they look forward to if nothing changed in that long to make them think another path was possible? They knew their timeline might disappear. It was worth it for them if another timeline had a better future.

[KizuyaKatogami]

This is absolutely disingenuous and false. The First Rejoining and Black Rose decimated both Aldenard and Ilsabard. There were survivors, in a broken and bleak world. The stories of the WoL gave them hope. It wasn't just Ironworks deciding for everyone. It was the survivors coming together and working toward that goal. And they worked on it for 200 years. 200 years in which nothing improved enough in their reality to weigh against that risky venture. They were looking to the past, no arguments there. But what future could they look forward to if nothing changed in that long to make them think another path was possible? They knew their timeline might disappear. It was worth it for them if another timeline had a better future.

Just like how the final days decimated not just a couple continents, but the entire world. What other choice did they have but to summon Zodiark? Did they rely on him? Yes. But it literally isnt any different from how people rely upon the WoL, or how we ourselves are constantly relying on higher up entities to help us. We're shown in the short story that they actually do eventually choose to live on, along with Midgardsormr i believe. So it was very much possible for them to continue through instead of erasing an entire timeline of people to resurrect one person. The whole problem here is Zodiark not being a permanent solution to the final days. That is Venat's main gripe, which is interesting in and of itself because she had the means to communicate and help before they even occurred. Thats the overall problem here.

Rewatch this since it is basically a summary of what led to venat's final decision
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlA0lGrSRqM

If you need further and more detailed accounts of what this scene represented. Rewatch all cutscenes from 2.0 till present that involved ascians



That is a very big IF lol.

Venat's entire plan is a very big if. Literally relies on one person, whom of which failed and required time manipulation to be brought back. I've already explained to you as best as i can about the sacrifices. I dont need nay videos to be shown to me as i already know the whole deal about the sacrifices and her decision. None of it changes the fact she couldve told them beforehand and didnt. She kept secrets,manipulated, and lied. End of story.

Yea I think some people just do not want to accept Venat's positive portrayal and therefore are trying to justify their negative views on her. On my part I do hope Venat makes some cameo in the future along with Emet if at all possible. Really liked their characters haha Venat is gone too soon for me haha. Her Voice Actress was also perfect for the role just like Voice Actress for Meteion is for her character.

No, most people just dont agree with her diabolical actions and horrible mindset. To me, shes nothing more than a psychopath. She preaches about suffering and walking forward but then has no hope for her own people and doesnt face the problem head on.

[Nilroreo]

This is absolutely disingenuous and false. The First Rejoining and Black Rose decimated both Aldenard and Ilsabard. There were survivors, in a broken and bleak world. The stories of the WoL gave them hope. It wasn't just Ironworks deciding for everyone. It was the survivors coming together and working toward that goal. And they worked on it for 200 years. 200 years in which nothing improved enough in their reality to weigh against that risky venture. They were looking to the past, no arguments there. But what future could they look forward to if nothing changed in that long to make them think another path was possible? They knew their timeline might disappear. It was worth it for them if another timeline had a better future.

Exactly! They were only doing what they could for the salvation of their star! They had their worlds shattered by a doomsday event and longed for the world they've lost. They determined that erasure of an entire world is preferable to living in hell. It's as you say, "It was worth it for them if another timeline had a better future."

Btw, can you guess which of the two I've been talking about?

[Rulakir]

Said civilization had zero qualms about throwing away half their population twice over and were perfectly willing to commit genocide of every new life born into the world just so they wouldn't have to feel sorrow or despair and recluse themselves into ignorant bliss of "paradise". The rest of the Ancient population making decisions aren't exactly of high standing moral character either.

There was nothing left to use for aether other than themselves. I'm sure mass suicide wouldn't be their #1 choice had circumstances not demanded it. "...Yet oh how the star had suffered. So many species lost. The land was blighted, the waters poisoned, and even the wind had ceased to blow."

As for the new life: "Once more did our people give of themselves to Zodiark. Another half of our race sacrificed to cleanse the world; to ensure that trees and grasses and myriad tiny lives would sprout and grow and flourish." Sounds to me like the focus was on restoring ecosystems to make the star inhabitable.

Regardless, I couldn't help but notice that "new life" was not mentioned in EW as one of Venat's reasons for sundering, so I'm left to assume either that plot was dropped, the Convocation was incorrect about her motives, or that's the lie she was telling people.

So, this new life had souls and they wanted to sacrifice it to get back what they had.

The Ancients couldn't create souls, so there's no reason to believe Zodiark capable of that feat either. However, souls being randomly generated, it stands to reason there were some in the mix. The Ancients weren't vegan and they didn't consider returning to the star to be a bad thing, so they wouldn't have had a moral quandary about sacrificing a portion of flora and fauna to release their loved ones' souls from Zodiark purgatory.

[TaleraRistain]

The Ancients couldn't create souls, so there's no reason to believe Zodiark capable of that feat either. However, souls being randomly generated, it stands to reason there were some in the mix. The Ancients weren't vegan and they didn't consider returning to the star to be a bad thing, so they wouldn't have had a moral quandary about sacrificing a portion of flora and fauna to release their loved ones' souls from Zodiark purgatory.

They did have a moral quandary as Ere Our Curtain Falls outlines

"The people were divided, unable to decide what to do with the future that now stretched out before them. Many wished to trade the new life which had sprung forth to reclaim those lost in sacrifice to Zodiark. No small number, however, insisted that the fate of our world should be entrusted to those selfsame freshly minted souls. All were at our wits' end."

It doesn't seem likely that they're going to debate entrusting the world to flora and fauna. Like you said, they would sacrifice without hesitation. But what would give pause? New people.

Also....why sacrifice at all? Their people are lost. It's very sad. Move on. Humanity learned how to do this after the Sundering. They couldn't.

[SDaemon]

As for the new life: "Once more did our people give of themselves to Zodiark. Another half of our race sacrificed to cleanse the world; to ensure that trees and grasses and myriad tiny lives would sprout and grow and flourish." Sounds to me like the focus was on restoring ecosystems to make the star inhabitable.

1/2 was given so Zodiark could shroud the world in aether to stop the Final Days, the 2nd set of 1/2 their population was off'd to restore the planet to how it was before. The final offering was to be the new life growing in the world and was to be a trade, their unwilling lives for the lives they shoved into Zodiark.

[linayar]

Regardless, I couldn't help but notice that "new life" was not mentioned in EW as one of Venat's reasons for sundering, so I'm left to assume either that plot was dropped, the Convocation was incorrect about her motives, or that's the lie she was telling people.

The new life is part of it, just not the sole reason.

Venat: "To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness. No paradise is without its shadows. If we cannot accept this truth and learn from our pain, then our plight shall be repeated."