Dark Knight Megathread

[Archwizard]

Agree for the most part, however that is not the case for a trial / raid scenario.

Nobody's saying it's an issue in those scenarios. The argument here is more about its use in AoE scenarios.

[Crater]

Nobody's saying it's an issue in those scenarios. The argument here is more about its use in AoE scenarios.

The problem is that that is literally where TBN is at its strongest, and yet no matter how many times any of us come in here with an actual argument backed up by real logs of existing game content or even just simple arithmetic based on the game's mechanics and tooltips, we are constantly met with "Hm, sorry but I have to disagree with basic, straightforward mathematics, btw here's a link to a Youtube clown" followed by turning back to everyone else participating in the evidence-free circlejerk about how it's a bad skill in dungeons.

[Dracosavarian]

Since Math was asked for earlier...

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5778466

I very much doubt my feelings on TBN will ever change. It's a really, really, really good shield against single hit Tankbusters with no real follow up. I don't dislike the skill. I think it's unique to Drk and should stay, as I feel it is a part of it's identity now. But it definitely needs some tweaks.

Where it starts to really falter in my opinion is when you are getting hit with a Tankbuster that repeatedly strikes you over and over again. Or, in a dungeon where you have multiple packs ( 3 + groups worth of pulls ) hammering on you over a period of time. TBN on average breaks on the first strike of most multi hit TB's I've encountered. Or breaks extremely quickly in a massive dungeon pull. ( Usually within 2-3 seconds avg if I am doing a massive pull. )

A shield that crumbles in one GCD, cannot resist further hits, as it no longer exists. And Oblation as a level 82 skill is a pale comparison to HoC, Holy Shelltron, and Bloodwhetting. Even when Oblation is paired with TBN, it still will not hold up in comparison to those newly forged skills.


How to fix it is a conundrum all it's own.

Personally, I want TBN removed as the primary source fueling Dark Arts. I'd like to see Dark Arts revamped and other skills be used to fuel it as a resource, to keep Dark Knight's rotation more frequent instead of one, massive, overwhelming burst, and then a boring period where all we do is 1,2,3 until we have resources again.

Remove it's tie to fueling the damage, and maybe then other things can be added onto it to help bump it up a bit.

As for Oblation itself...I think the issue with why they placed it at 82 is because it can be slapped on another party member. Or so I would say, if it weren't for the fact that the same can also be done with Heart of Corundum.

6.08 is supposed to be a job patch based on what has been said of late. I didn't see any references to Dark Knight...but...am hoping they correct some of the major problems with the job. We'll see. Time will tell I guess.

[Crater]

Since Math was asked for earlier...

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5778466

This entire post is math in the context of TBN taking a single tankbuster versus HoC taking a single tankbuster. And it is correct, in that on a per-use basis, TBN is generally weaker (ranging from 'marginally' to 'considerably' depending on the specific situation) against tankbusters than the other tanks' equivalent skills. But we aren't having a discussion about TBN vs HoC/HS in the context of tankbusters.

The math that people are failing to provide is the math that shows TBN being less effective in dungeon pulls.

[Ryaduera]

This entire post is math in the context of TBN taking a single tankbuster versus HoC taking a single tankbuster. And it is correct, in that on a per-use basis, TBN is generally weaker (ranging from 'marginally' to 'considerably' depending on the specific situation) against tankbusters than the other tanks' equivalent skills. But we aren't having a discussion about TBN vs HoC/HS in the context of tankbusters.

The math that people are failing to provide is the math that shows TBN being less effective in dungeon pulls.

That's because the math for dungeon pulls is significantly more complex. HoC has falloff mitigation, other cooldowns get used creating diminishing returns, GNB/PLD have Parry/Block rates respectively, Abyssal Drain is a heal entirely dependent on the number of targets, And I know from first hand experience PLD Holly Shelltron out performs both TBN and HoC in pulls in every way, but aurora is stacked with GNB effects and overall the math you're asking for is very possible, but honestly far too complex for me to be writing out this kind of math for free, math is already my job, numbers are my language. You don't even need to see the math to experience this, you can see the effects firsthand in dungeons. When I play DRK I feel pathetic defensively and healers feel more pressure when they have to heal DRK over all other tanks. The math you're asking for to disprove the usefulness of TBN exists, but there are so many variables from heal values, number of targets hit, parry rates, block rates, healing crits, enemy attack rates, when those attacks land on the tank, how often short cooldowns are even used (can't always be off cooldown for DRK and PLD), and oh god I could keep going. You're just saying that until someone puts in professional mathematician levels of work to disprove the effectiveness of TBN you will ignore the actual visible results of how poor the ability actually compares due to the kit it is in. Could you imagine how good TBN would be if we still had Dark Dance? The main problem with DRK defensive kit is synergy and coherence.

EDIT: Remember when PLD had stoneskin and you'd just toss it on yourself real quick before pulls and during boss downtime? Stoneskin was very weak compared to TBN, but it was on a tank with a block rate, so it was seen is too strong even when it could only block physical attacks. It was a positive feedback loop and didn't dig into the PLD offensive resource pool unless you were silly enough to use it during damage uptime. TBN deserves that kind of synergy before it can be called comparable to HoC, HS, and Blood Whetting. TBN is an S Tier ability on an D tier tank in defensive terms.

[Shurrikhan]

TBN deserves that kind of synergy before it can be called comparable to HoC, HS, and Blood Whetting.

...Why would a level 70 ability ever amount to a combined level 70 ability plus a massive level 82 bonus?

TBN you will ignore the actual visible results of how poor the ability actually compares due to the kit it is in.

That's not the ability, though. That's the kit. DRK's pre-EW on-demand compares just fine against everyone else's pre-EW on-demand. The problem is that DRK's is a pre-EW kit... with merely Oblation, vs. 3 tanks with actual EW kits. That's not a TBN problem. That's a "Where tf is everything else?" problem.

That being said, the end-result is still that I do fine as a DRK, and when healing DRKs, off just a pre-GCD and oGCDs healing, same as any other tank. Perhaps if we weren't regularly shoveling the idea that TBN is so weak that it's not even worth using in dungeons --as if there was something unique to damage coming from multiple sources that makes a flat shield somehow worth fewer HP-- we'd have fewer DRKs who require GCDs heal spams. That doesn't mean DRK doesn't need an actual EW kit, beyond merely Oblation, but the idea that it's somehow unhealable or catastrophically weak in dungeons is utter bull. Bad DRKs might be, but so are bad GNBs and PLDs.

[Ryaduera]

That's not the ability, though. That's the kit.

*slow clap* Yes, that is what I said. That is exactly what I said. I swear 99% of discussing with you is quoting what I have already said.

The main problem with DRK defensive kit is synergy and coherence.

TBN is an S Tier ability on an D tier tank in defensive terms.

If you're wondering the other 1% is you saying that statements like mine are people saying TBN isn't even worth using. I'm not even sure where that logic comes from. If I had a skill that reduced damage taken by 1% for free, I would still consider it worth using if it didn't take up any resources.