*Spoilers* The Past and After the Endwalker MSQ End

[Theodric]

Sorry but no cigar. "Our plan" is not fundamentally any clearer in this case than "our methods", especially when the group he most recently belonged to is the Ascians, applying a very specific set of methods to restore mankind and the star, but at the 11th hour. I understand you want to believe that statement applied to the possibility of what Veloran is discussing above, where she reveals this knowledge to the ancients, and you can believe that - I certainly do not - but understand that it's not particularly convincing in cementing the notion that any methods the ancients had available to hone dynamis, either via facilities like Ktisis Hyperboreia, or via proxy methods, or even just by sundering a select few (given that just a few sundered sufficed to dispatch Endsinger, in spite of hoarding many stars' worth of despair) would not have succeeded. That would be a rather huge stretch. Out of interest, I also checked the FR version, and I would note that his statement is broader in EN, whereas in FR he is more specific in attributing to her (as opposed to their) methods the act of setting foot on Ultima Thule... partly accomplished, let's not forget, by tagging Meteion, as well as Sharlayan devising an escape pod. I am not sure what the JP version says, but if we say they're similar in their narrower scope, to me this undermines this as some broad sweeping statement about the ability of the ancients to devise a/any counter to Meteion had they had been told more, or even as a reference to the Ascian methods, and is just referring to getting there. A much narrower scope, I am sure you'll agree.

Nicely put - I'm half tempted to play through the French version of the game myself once Endwalker is given the New Game+ treatment.

[EaraGrace]

Almost all of Emet's time in ShB is spent acting against Zodiark's best interests...

Only at the very end, everything up to that point fell in line with the Zodiark plan. And if were going by what Emet says:

Emet: And like one of your primals, He tempered us. It was only natural. There is no resisting such power. And so we Ascians came to exist solely to bring about the rule of darkness. His darkness. Of course, some would call us "evil" for it... and they would be fools. Though that is only to be expected, given their innate ability to conceive of the nature of our universe.

Metatextually...

I just don't think it has the holes you believe it does.

As to the "technical reason" point...

You do not need an in-depth knowledge of a subject, to know you need an expert. I could know if someone near me needed immediate surgery, but also know that I am not capable of doing so. Does that mean I in fact have the requisite knowledge?

Not to mention the whole point of going to Elpis was to find Hermes. Mentioning him, and the role he would have, would be unavoidable in explaining our presence there. This is further proven when Venat mentions the stagnation of celestial currents when confronting Hermes, we told her of the role he played, and the contributions we knew of.

Yes, they are all quite specialized. Except for Hermes, who is a lone specialist in several unrelated yet plot-critical fields of study...

Yes, events involving one of his creations, a secret one that he told no one of, motivated and encouraged by circumstances he shares with no one else, makes him uniquely positioned to address things. This is true.

He is the one to figure out why the Final Days was different for us than it was for the Ancients, as well as the first to conclude that the source came from off-world based simply on his understanding of celestial aether and dynamis. Again the again the story says and shows he is important. I can't tell you how to feel about it, only that that is the case.

The extremely questionable ethics...

Knowing that things as they stand lead to our coming, and acting to ensure that outcome are two different things. She states she will not take for granted anything as she "walks her path," and she will strive to do her best. Because, as she states plainly, "We cannot know until the moment is at hand."

If I could tell someone was lying I should think that would make me less inclined to believe them, not more.

As far as I am aware, none, not Emet, not Elidibus, not the Ancients she pleaded with, not those who followed her, none accused her of being a liar. The closest was Emet saying Hydaelyn would undoubtedly have a differing view of events surrounding the Sundering. Not much.

[KariTheFox]

Keeping Hermes and therefore the entire convocation in the dark was important because of Hermes knew that the universe was so meaningless, he would use his knowledge and resources to sabotage any efforts the ancients made to forestall the final days.

This isn't speculation - this exact scenario playing out was the entire instigating incident of Endwalker. The only difference being it was Xande who triggered Amon's desire for oblivion, instead of Meteion.

[Iscah]

Keeping Hermes and therefore the entire convocation in the dark was important because of Hermes knew that the universe was so meaningless, he would use his knowledge and resources to sabotage any efforts the ancients made to forestall the final days.

I'm not certain about that. He reached his despair-into-madness point thanks to Meteion, but then he wiped his own memory of it happening. So he should be back to his melancholy but basically good self at that point, with no idea that the root cause of the Final Days is a disaster of his own making.

[Cilia]

I'm not certain about that. He reached his despair-into-madness point thanks to Meteion, but then he wiped his own memory of it happening. So he should be back to his melancholy but basically good self at that point, with no idea that the root cause of the Final Days is a disaster of his own making.

The more accurate reasoning is that if Hermes knew his wayward creation wasn't actually dead but trying to wipe out humanity as part of his "test of worthiness," he wouldn't help or actively sabotage efforts to prevent the Final Days. In order to make things fair he wiped his memory so he wouldn't be tempted to do nothing, since it was a trial of humanity (himself included).

That said it's made eminently clear in story that Hermes' knowledge and understanding of dynamis and celestial aether currents were vital to creating Zodiark and forestalling the Final Days. And it is indeed true that, knowing all of this, his reincarnation sabotaged the aetherial shroud protecting Etheirys (for his own reasons, or so he says).

[Rulakir]

Hermes failed the trial long before Meteion went rogue by not having any humanity in the first place. Much like Venat, he's another character the narrative seemed to bend over backwards to convince you he was a good person, but his actions don't line up with that being the case.

[tokinokanatae]

Hermes failed the trial long before Meteion went rogue by not having any humanity in the first place. Much like Venat, he's another character the narrative seemed to bend over backwards to convince you he was a good person, but his actions don't line up with that being the case.

I love Hermes and think he's a great character, but I guess it's only really just occurred to me that there are players that actually took his, "I'm the only one that cares about creations, no one else is like me, only I ever feel sad, therefore there is something wrong with society that I can only fix with an example of a superior way to do things," at face value?

To me, it was just so obvious he was a hypocrite? Maybe I'm wrong, but I really did think that the way he was written in how he treated Meteion ("that's not YOUR favorite food, it's MY favorite food, because YOU can't EAT") was much more borderline abusive and thoughtless than the way we saw any other Ancient treat one of their creations in Elpis. Meteion was ultimately a tool to Hermes, a delivery system to bring the words he wanted to hear, because he couldn't bear to try to communicate his feelings to his fellow man without evidence for fear of rejection.

[Cleretic]

Hermes failed the trial long before Meteion went rogue by not having any humanity in the first place. Much like Venat, he's another character the narrative seemed to bend over backwards to convince you he was a good person, but his actions don't line up with that being the case.

...what? His entire thing is that he has humanity--albeit differently-centered humanity. It's a huge thing that he's the one guy that goes 'actually, it's kinda messed up that we're free of suffering and death but make creatures that are designed to suffer and die'. Which is an absolutely valid stone to throw at the Ancients; if you invent the concept of an apex predator I think you need to have a serious think about what you're doing with your life.

He's got a naive approach to resolving this question he makes for himself, and doesn't handle the answer he gets well at all (both essentially a consequence of Ancient thinking), but to say he lacks humanity is grossly missing the point.

[Rulakir]

...what? His entire thing is that he has humanity--albeit differently-centered humanity.

Were he truly humane he wouldn't have turned on a dime when it came to subjecting all of existence to the Final Days. I'm not going to play armchair psychiatrist because I don't know what kind of mental illness someone has to have to do what he did, but it was something present even during the times people thought he was a "noble soul".

I'm not arguing the appearance he gave others, I'm saying it was false. Anyone capable of doing what he did is not someone who was truly empathetic or had a reverence for life. I believe Amon was closer to the truth of who Hermes was at the core.

[Cilia]

Hermes' whole problem is that he's someone in a world of gods that holds human values. Amaurotine civilization is heavily patterned on ancient Greece, with their biggest players named after Olympian gods (Hermes included); the Olympian gods are famously hypocritical, petty jackasses to humans that place little to no value on individual lives, much like the Ancients pretend to be so much better than sundered humanity but are at their core not much different. Hermes just sees this tendency for the Ancients to place themselves above everything else and calls them out on it, making valid criticisms of Amaurotine culture that (are intended to) resonate with audiences but not his peers.

His whole "test of humanity's worthiness" is just an excuse to get out of killing Meteion, despite knowing it would be the responsible thing to do (something Emet-Selch calls him out on). Hermes loved her (or at least the Meteion he kept with him on Etheriys) more than any of his other creations, his civilization, and very likely his own life. A slightly insensitive remark on her physiology doesn't mean he only saw her as a tool, given he repeatedly shows concern for her happiness by asking you to take her away from discussions that would have her feeling down and promises her a gift upon her sisters' return to Etheriys. Meteion is basically Hermes' surrogate daughter, which is why he acts so irrationally when it comes to dealing with her.