*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Jandor]

Clearly not, since Venat easily uses it to target a specific point in time that you were interested in. As opposed to any period throughout history that same location had experienced.

Is it targeted? Or is it just that nothing else of note has happened there in ages?

You're not exactly trying to pull it off in a busy well traveled area.

[Veloran]

Is it targeted? Or is it just that nothing else of note has happened there in ages?

You're not exactly trying to pull it off in a busy well traveled area.

Firstly, since when is "something of note" part of the criteria? We've gotten Echo visions where people do nothing but walk around and talk about the daily news. Secondly, it's a place on a branch island of Elpis that they intentionally created, there is no way that Venat just "happened" to hone in on Hermes there at that time talking about his grand project completely by chance, with nobody else ever having even strolled by in possibly eons.

The fact that the Ancients can intentionally activate it would by default suggest that they're capable of going through specific memories, rather than randomly happening upon what they're looking for in the entire history of a location's existence.

[Jandor]

The fact that the Ancients can intentionally activate it would by default suggest that they're capable of going through specific memories, rather than randomly happening upon what they're looking for in the entire history of a location's existence.

And the fact that they don't use it to verify our story would suggest that they're not capable of going through specific memories.

They don't take a very obvious course of action, so either everyone in Elpis is an idiot, or it doesn't work like you think it does.

[RyuDragnier]

You're not in the Lifestream at that time though. And you also get visions of other places that are not themselves within the Lifestream. In fact because the explanation Venat gives is memories imprinted onto aether, and the power of the Lifestream is supposed to dissolve material aether and wash away mortal memories (Unless it's an extreme imprint on the soul itself like the Final Days), it shouldn't be possible to get any Echo visions from Val.

The Echo checks the aether left in the area. It traveled through the Lifestream, leaving a LOT of aether in the area that was from the lifestream, meaning other continents as well, not just Eureka. Meaning a lot of aether that could have linked to all over the world.

[Veloran]

And the fact that they don't use it to verify our story would suggest that they're not capable of going through specific memories.

They don't take a very obvious course of action, so either everyone in Elpis is an idiot, or it doesn't work like you think it does.

But the whole group effectively believes WoL's story. Emet doesn't want to believe it, but even he clearly does. After WoL explains everything they soon thereafter go off to investigate on the basis of that explanation.

The Echo checks the aether left in the area. It traveled through the Lifestream, leaving a LOT of aether in the area that was from the lifestream, meaning other continents as well, not just Eureka. Meaning a lot of aether that could have linked to all over the world.

So WoL just happened to come upon traces of aether from the Lifestream that were washed in from across the world from places that weren't even themselves in the Lifestream, when the Lifestream is actually supposed to wipe away physical aether and memories, and they happened to all be pertinent to the plot at hand...? I'm sorry, but that is not a believable explanation.

[RyuDragnier]

So WoL just happened to come upon traces of aether from the Lifestream that were washed in from across the world from places that weren't even themselves in the Lifestream, when the Lifestream is actually supposed to wipe away physical aether and memories, and they happened to all be pertinent to the plot at hand...? I'm sorry, but that is not a believable explanation.

Have you forgotten that every event that has happened up to now in the story, as almost everything in the game that happens seems to be rather convenient in general, and seems to be pertinent to the plot at hand? Isn't it just convenient that we have the Echo so as to not be tempered by Ifrit? Isn't it just convenient that we happen to spot somebody suspicious and overhear the info needed to reveal a plot point? Isn't it just convenient that we just so happened to get random information that explains some of the stuff going on?

This happens all the time in the game, where we get pertinent information or convenience at just the right time for the plot to move along or be saved. This writing trope is going to happen and HAS happened in the game constantly since 2.0, so I'd say just roll with it at this point. Because otherwise you have to throw this against almost every single thing that has happened in this game.

[MikkoAkure]

Venat's explanation also doesn't at all cover the extended Echo sequences in 1.0, not to mention Echo visions of the future.

The Echo is both as powerful and as limited as the writers need it to be at that very moment.

The powers we had in 1.0 don't seem to be canon anymore. In ARR+, we aren't able to interact with the past like we used to and fight things and talk to people, ambiguous, possibly metaphorical Cid goggle scene notwithstanding. Unless it's an event that's specifically referenced again, I personally consider a lot of 1.0 to be no longer canon.

Besides the Echo acting completely differently between 1.0 and ARR, Y'shtola was completely changed. Before, she had a lot more magical powers and could stop and melt bullets shot at her, stop giant axes with her bare hands (would've been helpful against Zenos), create multiple copies of herself that could act independently of each other, and successfully teleport us out of the Echo and away from danger.

Contrary to what I think a lot of people here think, I believe the writers (mostly Matsuno) are out to make "a cool story" rather than "a coherent story". The continuity is often sacrificed if it gets in the way of telling the story they want to tell. Then there's the fact that there's a lot of different writers involved, writing different stories. The future-telling Echo power you referenced are from the Ivalice and Bozja side-stories and there's a lot of other things from those which don't exactly match the rest of the game either. Auracite is completely different, with a different power. They also required a retcon for Dalmasca since its location and timeline of events was different in ARR.

Have you forgotten that every event that has happened up to now in the story, as almost everything in the game that happens seems to be rather convenient in general, and seems to be pertinent to the plot at hand?

Dangit. You beat me to it.

[Veloran]

Have you forgotten that every event that has happened up to now in the story, as almost everything in the game that happens seems to be rather convenient in general, and seems to be pertinent to the plot at hand?

This goes beyond "convenient" and into the realm of "implausible contradiction". Indeed while the usage of the Echo is already a plot convenience, the explanation of "someone must be thinking about the past, or that past must be imprinted somewhere" pushes it into a full on contrivance. And as I said before, that doesn't even begin to account for the uses of it in 1.0, or for the futuresight version of it.

[MikkoAkure]

And as I said before, that doesn't even begin to account for the uses of it in 1.0, or for the futuresight version of it.

And as I said above, powers that don't show up ever again at all, even for the same exact character, since 1.0 or are only in the possession of 1 single character from a side story, who only exists in the side stories, written by a writer who has nothing at all to do with FFXIV outside of the side stories. Matsuno doesn't even keep Mikoto's age consistent between Stormblood (29) and Shadowbringers (24).

[Jandor]

Contrary to what I think a lot of people here think, I believe the writers (mostly Matsuno) are out to make "a cool story" rather than "a coherent story". The continuity is often sacrificed if it gets in the way of telling the story they want to tell. Then there's the fact that there's a lot of different writers involved, writing different stories. The future-telling Echo power you referenced are from the Ivalice and Bozja side-stories and there's a lot of other things from those which don't exactly match the rest of the game either. Auracite is completely different, with a different power. They also required a retcon for Dalmasca since its location and timeline of events was different in ARR.

This basically sums it up. The game has run for nearly a decade, and despite some good efforts from some of the writers, the lore has got pretty messy in places. If you like the story it hangs together well enough that you can make it work, and if you don't like the story there are plenty of loose threads and messy retcons to tug at until it unravels.