The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

[Lyth]

Given that a 7/14 WoL killed Lahabrea, I would think the other unsundered wouldn't take any more risks. Any new adventurer who appeared to be making strides would need to be snuffed out immediately and decisively.

Igeyorhm already pulled this stunt on the thirteenth. The end result was a Flood of Darkness that left it completely bereft of Aether and unable to be rejoined to the source. It's discussed in the EE, page 213.

[Rannie]

I think the reason people get that was from the post-Antitower scene, where it was described in vagueries that things were getting dire enough that the next Rejoining was Team Hydaelyn's last chance. Unclear at the time if that was because of an issue on Hydaelyn's end, the world's end, or just because at that point the Ascians could pivot in strategy to something even harder to stop, but given what we know of G'raha's timeline it probably wasn't the last one, or else they'd have been more active.



Actually, a 7/14 WoL didn't kill Lahabrea, a 7/14 Thordan did; we just bruised him up a bit. Hell, given we don't even know if Thordan had the Echo and so was a sundered soul, a fraction might not even be useful. An 8/14 WoL did kill Emet-Selch, but that hadn't yet happened in that timeline. Perhaps even more alarming, though, was that in both timelines, a 1/14 Ardbert killed both Loghrif and (apparently) Mitron.


I don't think the fact the Ascians were no-shows in G'raha's timeline was actually all that important, though. Remember that the Seventh Calamity was actually the odd one out in terms of not sending the world back to the stone age, so suddenly the Ascians had to work pretty quickly as far as their timescale goes. The way Rejoinings normally went was that it took centuries until anything of much note to them happened, so the Ascians being quiet until rebuildings had fully gotten started was actually the norm.

We were 8/14 now 9/14 1 source plus 7 different rejoining at 1/14 each. When Ardbert joined with us that added another 1/14

1 plus 7 is 8 plus 1 more is 9...

[Rulakir]

Math. :P I always hear Emet in my head saying, "A vaunted hero of the Source, seven times rejoined."

I knew I should have referenced "If I Were an Evil Overlord" in my response since that's what I was thinking about when I wrote it. Lots of good advice for the Ascians in there.

[Rannie]

Math. :P I always hear Emet in my head saying, "A vaunted hero of the Source, seven times rejoined."

I knew I should have referenced "If I Were an Evil Overlord" in my response since that's what I was thinking about when I wrote it. Lots of good advice for the Ascians in there.

I hate math too lol but yeah the 7 times is more meaning at seperate... well times lol for the lack if better terminology. Or I could possible say 7 different periods or such. But yeah I hate math...

Damn i just came up with a perfect pizza metaphor that i should have used... oh well I'll try to remember it for another day..

[Cleretic]

We were 8/14 now 9/14 1 source plus 7 different rejoining at 1/14 each. When Ardbert joined with us that added another 1/14

1 plus 7 is 8 plus 1 more is 9...

I fumbled that, but the math on us is still less important than the math on Ardbert.

[Vyrerus]

I fumbled that, but the math on us is still less important than the math on Ardbert.

Ehh, sorta? We do ours solo, and with greater being's aether vessels. Ardbert did his with five crystals of light and the channeling of the other WoDs. That's only 5/14ths, granted, but Loghrif and Mitron fused are still not whole. And it did only kill Loghrif, merely mutating Mitron into the first Sineater, so it wasn't a clean kill.

[Pofruin]

We were 8/14 now 9/14 1 source plus 7 different rejoining at 1/14 each. When Ardbert joined with us that added another 1/14

1 plus 7 is 8 plus 1 more is 9...

There is one weird thing with that math: We where NOT ON the Source when 7 rejoining took place, since they happen after Calamity. We where sent into the future by Lousiuax. There was no dramatic soul rejoining moment in the ARR story as it was with Ardbert. and there is oood chance we are not yet 7 times rejoined when we get Ardberts shard.

And introduction of Dynamis just sledgehammered all this Aetheric soul power scaling by introducing factor that does not follow pure math when calculating results.

[Rannie]

There is one weird thing with that math: We where NOT ON the Source when 7 rejoining took place, since they happen after Calamity. We where sent into the future by Lousiuax. There was no dramatic soul rejoining moment in the ARR story as it was with Ardbert. and there is oood chance we are not yet 7 times rejoined when we get Ardberts shard.

And introduction of Dynamis just sledgehammered all this Aetheric soul power scaling by introducing factor that does not follow pure math when calculating results.

That was already touched upon the rejoining happened when the calamity hit. Only the 1.0 players had been sent to the future no one from 2.0 was. Also Beq Lugg specifically states that while the scions souls where denser than the ones on the 1st ours was the densest of all. Meaning our joining with Ardbert. If our souls had only been rejoined the same amount (meaning no rejoining from the 7th umbral calamity) then that dog thing wouldn't have made such a comment.

Also since it was said earlier too, even Emet said we were 7 times rejoined while we were waiting for the ladder to be fixed before joining with Ardbet.

[LineageRazor]

Read through this thread, and the thoughts on what Venat did and whether she was justified...

I have to admit, after seeing the story play out, I was not convinced that Venat did the right thing. Her decision to withhold information and try to guide her people to saving themselves, even with the foreknowledge that this DIDN'T WORK, seemed nonsensical. At the very least, she should have shared what she knew about Metion once it became clear that things were falling apart. Even if everything worked out in the end, even if the actions taken eventually resulted in the defeat of Metion (something the Ancients might possibly never have been able to do themselves; the best they could manage was shield themselves from her influence), I was not convinced that Venat might have done a better job if she'd shared her hidden knowledge with her people, just as we chose to share our hidden knowledge of the future with her and the others.

That said, I seriously think there's an aspect of Blue and Orange morality going on here that has to be taken into consideration. Hermes was sad. He was sad because the other Ancients couldn't seem to understand that their creations could suffer, that they could fear death, that they could feel pain. Eventually, he enacted his memory erasure plan to ensure that the Ancients themselves would eventually face a trial to decide whether they were fit for survival.

I think there can be little doubt that the Ancients held themselves as being a tier apart from their creations, above them and fundamentally superior and of greater intrinsic importance. Certainly, they might favor such creations, bear affection for them - but that affection is much like the affection that we have for pets, even in cases where the creations are clearly intelligent beings. Several of the Elpis quests made it quite clear that even intelligent creations were seen as disposable and replaceable (such as the quest where we're instructed to allow the beast to rip us apart if it became a choice between its life and ours - it's an important research specimen, after all, and we're just a familiar!).

More than that, though, there were some strong hints that the Ancients did not hold their OWN lives in especially high regard, either. It's a regular occurrence, for instance, for an Ancient to simply decide that they've done enough and that it is time to die. Half of all the Ancients decided to sacrifice their own lives to birth Zodiark, and while that seems like a breathtaking spectacle of altruism from our perspective, to the Ancients it might not have been quite so unimaginable.

As another being from this culture in which Life - both that of the Ancients and not - is considered to be ultimately not that important, Venat's decision becomes a bit more understandable, even if it seems monstrous to us. She held back from spilling the beans regarding her future knowledge specifically because she was willing to allow Hermes's experiment to play out, to see if they would be able to prove themselves worthy of continuing to exist on the planet. It was a test which, in her estimation, they failed, as their solution was to hide behind Zodiark and ignore the underlying problem - and further, to hypocritically destroy the creations in which they'd claimed to have placed so much importance, simply to bring back their lost brethren. Where did their high-and-mighty ideals about maintaining ecological balance on the planet go once their collective back was to the wall?

This irreverence for the value of life was both what allowed Venat to do as she did, and also what prevented the Convocation and the rest of the Ancients from finding a lasting solution. The same irreverence for life is quite likely what would have lead the Ancients to their eventual doom - possibly one similar to that of the third leg of the Dead Ends, a world so utterly free of strife that its people had lost all meaning to their existence and any will to live. It was time to allow a new people to step up to bat.

The Sundering resulted in life forms whose existences were brutish, painful, and short. Life is fleeting and precious, and the living claw and scrape for as much of it as they can. Carelessness for life like that displayed by the Ancients, both in regards to their creations and to themselves, is regarded as abhorrent. While by no means guaranteed, this new form of life had a chance to overcome the tests that had laid every other galactic civilization low - and so far, they have.

tl;dr, it's hard to swallow what Venat did, when looking at it from our own perspective. The game, however, paints Venat as being from a culture where such an abominable act might not be quite so abominable.

[Lersayil]

snip

Pretty well reasoned and overall great read!

Two points of doubt I'd like your take on:

• Do you think Hermes' test to be fair, and if so, does the Sundered (unlike the Ancients) getting hints and direct help from Venat not mess with the morals behind her decision?
• Do you think Venats answer to the "too perfect" society via sundering and suffering will provide a long term answer to the issue, and if yes, what is your reasoning? Wouldn't the sundered sooner or later reach a point of advancement akin to the Ancients at their height? (bad, biased, but still somewhat relevant example: the Allagan Empire)