*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Jandor]

Lets not give Hermes too much credit. He was a... uh smart cookie in some ways, but in the grand scheme of things only one individual, and not even a strong one. One could conceive myriad of ways to leave him out of the testimony towards the Convocation, and even restrain / eliminate him when he outlived his usefulness.

The whole thing about the Convocation not believing Venat is probably moot. The Echo is something established to exist, Emet stated that the Convocation has the ability to detect lies and Venat was (for better or worse) a respected / famous / infamous ex-member of the Convocation. An oddball she may have been, but that apparently just comes with the seat of Azem.

The echo can be used to peer at memories etched upon the aether of the soul, but that only gets a look at whatever that person is thinking about.
The echo can also be used to look at memories etched upon the aether of the land, but that only gets you a look at whatever happened at that location.

Both have their drawbacks, you don't get to look at whatever you fancy in either case. I suppose there is also the possibility that beings so well versed in aether might be able to create false etchings upon both, forged memories essentially.

[Veloran]

The echo can be used to peer at memories etched upon the aether of the soul, but that only gets a look at whatever that person is thinking about.

The Echo is not necessarily always viewing whatever someone happens to be thinking about. For instance when Fordola Echoes WoL's past she suddenly sees seemingly all of their adventures, and there are times WoL Echoes certain events that are unrelated to either a person or a location. Considering the Ancient's increased control of the Echo, it wouldn't be surprising if they could sift through memories at will.

Moreover, Emet does say that they can outright tell whether or not someone is lying. So while the Echo itself could serve to prove the point, it's also an aside.

[Jandor]

The Echo is not necessarily always viewing whatever someone happens to be thinking about. For instance when Fordola Echoes WoL's past she suddenly sees seemingly all of their adventures, and there are times WoL Echoes certain events that are unrelated to either a person or a location. Considering the Ancient's increased control of the Echo, it wouldn't be surprising if they could sift through memories at will.

I guess we were thinking about all of our adventures then, the whole 'peer at memories they're thinking about' info comes directly from Venat.



I'd be inclined to agree that the memories you get sometimes seem very tangential at best, but neither us nor the Ancients seem to be capable of rummaging around in peoples brains at will.

Moreover, Emet does say that they can outright tell whether or not someone is lying. So while the Echo itself could serve to prove the point, it's also an aside.

To be fair, he's hardly going to go around saying the Convocation actually has no idea if someone is lying.

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Telling the Governing body of your world all about the apocalyptic threat it faces would seem like a pretty good idea, and yet Venat very obviously didn't do that. So either she didn't think she could convince them, even with the echo and the lie detector, or she thought that telling them wouldn't pan out, in which case the echo and the lie detector are irrelevant.

[Veloran]

I guess we were thinking about all of our adventures then, the whole 'peer at memories they're thinking about' info comes directly from Venat.

And as we see, the description she gives is provably untrue. WoL has multiple Echo visions that are not at all related to a subject's recollection - For some early examples there's WoL's Echo flashbacks to some of the Scions during the city-state intros which includes multiple scenes some of which are set years apart. Or the instance which prompts Thancred to introduce you to the Scions, where WoL Echoes to listen in on a conversation that the subject was not involved in or privy to whatsoever. For a much later example, numerous Eureka Echo visions feature scenes that have no connection to either the location WoL is at nor anybody they happen to be around. I hardly wish to scour back through every instance of the Echo throughout the game, but even a few examples disprove the notion that it's always either connected to a location or a memory that's in the process of being recalled.

[Jandor]

And as we see, the description she gives is provably untrue. <snip>

I did accept that some of our previous echo visions seem very tangential to what is going on. There does always seem to be at least some personal or geographical link though.

Honestly, given the vagueness with which it links soul, memory, location and the resultant vision of the past, it would seem to be an even less useful investigative tool for the Ancients than I initially thought.

[Veloran]

There does always seem to be at least some personal or geographical link though.

As noted previously, when doing Eureka you frequently get Echo visions of people that aren't around you who are on entirely different continents for the scenes in question. The only connection at play is a relevancy to the mystery you're investigating.

it would seem to be an even less useful investigative tool for the Ancients than I initially thought.

Clearly not, since Venat easily uses it to target a specific point in time that you were interested in. As opposed to any period throughout history that same location had experienced.

Venat's explanation also doesn't at all cover the extended Echo sequences in 1.0, not to mention Echo visions of the future.

[RyuDragnier]

As noted previously, when doing Eureka you frequently get Echo visions of people that aren't around you who are on entirely different continents for the scenes in question. The only connection at play is a relevancy to the mystery you're investigating.

Which can be explained rather easily. Eureka was tossed into the lifestream in an attempt to kill an Ascian. Meaning its aether is mixed with a lot other aether from the lifestream, aether that wouldn't be there originally, which is what made the place such a mess to begin with.

[Jandor]

Clearly not, since Venat easily uses it to target a specific point in time that you were interested in. As opposed to any period throughout history that same location had experienced.

Is it targeted? Or is it just that nothing else of note has happened there in ages?

You're not exactly trying to pull it off in a busy well traveled area.

[MikkoAkure]

Venat's explanation also doesn't at all cover the extended Echo sequences in 1.0, not to mention Echo visions of the future.

The Echo is both as powerful and as limited as the writers need it to be at that very moment.

The powers we had in 1.0 don't seem to be canon anymore. In ARR+, we aren't able to interact with the past like we used to and fight things and talk to people, ambiguous, possibly metaphorical Cid goggle scene notwithstanding. Unless it's an event that's specifically referenced again, I personally consider a lot of 1.0 to be no longer canon.

Besides the Echo acting completely differently between 1.0 and ARR, Y'shtola was completely changed. Before, she had a lot more magical powers and could stop and melt bullets shot at her, stop giant axes with her bare hands (would've been helpful against Zenos), create multiple copies of herself that could act independently of each other, and successfully teleport us out of the Echo and away from danger.

Contrary to what I think a lot of people here think, I believe the writers (mostly Matsuno) are out to make "a cool story" rather than "a coherent story". The continuity is often sacrificed if it gets in the way of telling the story they want to tell. Then there's the fact that there's a lot of different writers involved, writing different stories. The future-telling Echo power you referenced are from the Ivalice and Bozja side-stories and there's a lot of other things from those which don't exactly match the rest of the game either. Auracite is completely different, with a different power. They also required a retcon for Dalmasca since its location and timeline of events was different in ARR.

Have you forgotten that every event that has happened up to now in the story, as almost everything in the game that happens seems to be rather convenient in general, and seems to be pertinent to the plot at hand?

Dangit. You beat me to it.