Confusion (of the highest order) about Venat and Sundering

[Veloran]

whereas the people planning to sacrifice "some portion of life on the planet" may have been trying to sacrifice sentient life without their agreement.

In what way is that any different from Venat sacrificing every living thing X14*12,000 years without their consent?

[Kordarion]

In what way is that any different from Venat sacrificing every living thing X14*12,000 years without their consent?

Are you seriously still trying to blame Venat for every death that ever happened after the sundering? I can understand considering the sundering to be killing people, even if I don't agree, but to actively blame every death after the sundering on Venat because she took away the ancients god powers is insane, especially when you take into account the fact that if the sundering is murder then the rejoinings are also murder and that quite a large number of those deaths you attribute to Venat are actually not her fault but the acsians. Not to mention the death count from the Allagan and Garlean empires, the catastrophe on the 13th, the deaths caused by the environmental effects of the rejoinings and, probably, the many acsian built murder empires on other shards. She may have sundered their world but THEY CHOOSE TO MURDER OTHER PEOPLE when they could have tried to move on, not forget but move on. Are you really going to blame those murders on her too?

Do you also blame your furthest in the past tracible ancestor for the death of every other ancestor you have because your first ancestor gave birth to the beginning of the rest of your line and humans are destined to die? Because that's the impression you are giving.

[Lersayil]

Are you seriously still trying to blame Venat for every death that ever happened after the sundering? I can understand considering the sundering to be killing people, even if I don't agree, but to actively blame every death after the sundering on Venat because she took away the ancients god powers is insane, especially when you take into account the fact that if the sundering is murder then the rejoinings are also murder and that quite a large number of those deaths you attribute to Venat are actually not her fault but the acsians. Not to mention the death count from the Allagan and Garlean empires, the catastrophe on the 13th, the deaths caused by the environmental effects of the rejoinings and, probably, the many acsian built murder empires on other shards. She may have sundered their world but THEY CHOOSE TO MURDER OTHER PEOPLE when they could have tried to move on, not forget but move on. Are you really going to blame those murders on her too?

Do you also blame your furthest in the past tracible ancestor for the death of every other ancestor you have because your first ancestor gave birth to the beginning of the rest of your line and humans are destined to die? Because that's the impression you are giving.

Its not a completely unreasonable stance to take. There is an argument to be made about her not being directly responsible for all the deaths since the sundering, but she is very much at least partially and indirectly responsible. Her actions directly lead to an increased amount of death, suffering and greatly shortened lifespans of sentient life on the planet and shards. She herself feels responsible and states as much.

[Kordarion]

Its not a completely unreasonable stance to take. There is an argument to be made about her not being directly responsible for all the deaths since the sundering, but she is very much at least partially and indirectly responsible. Her actions directly lead to an increased amount of death, suffering and greatly shortened lifespans of sentient life on the planet and shards. She herself feels responsible and states as much.

I agree that she is indirectly to blame and that there is an ethical grey area in that but what I have repeatedly taken from Veloran's comments on the matter is that they seem to hold Venat personally responsible for those deaths, as if she walked up to those people and stabbed each and every one of them to death. And so far they have said nothing to the contrary and in fact seem to keep reinforcing their view.

[Lersayil]

I agree that she is indirectly to blame and that there is an ethical grey area in that but what I have repeatedly taken from Veloran's comments on the matter is that they seem to hold Venat personally responsible for those deaths, as if she walked up to those people and stabbed each and every one of them to death. And so far they have said nothing to the contrary and in fact seem to keep reinforcing their view.

True, but how much of a difference does that make in the grand scheme of the argument though? Even if she was only fully responsible for the "death" of everyone during the sundering, and only held partial responsibility in the death and suffering that followed for thousands of years... thats still a lot she's responsible for.

In the end, I don't think there is much difference between Emet and Venat. They both did terrible things for what they perceived as the greater good and made no excuses about it. There are a number of differences of course (some pros and cons on both sides), but when it comes down to it, neither of them were truly villainous, nor heroic. And as far as I recall neither really proclaimed themselves as either.

That being said, I do think Endwalker kinda pulled punches with Venat (intentionally or not) to make sure she's seen as sympathetic. A reverse Emet issue from Shb if you will.

[QT_Melon]

I agree that she is indirectly to blame and that there is an ethical grey area in that but what I have repeatedly taken from Veloran's comments on the matter is that they seem to hold Venat personally responsible for those deaths, as if she walked up to those people and stabbed each and every one of them to death. And so far they have said nothing to the contrary and in fact seem to keep reinforcing their view.

hmm to put it in this perspective because people are talking about consent due to it being a violation upon themselves - while people argue otherwise.

"Rape is better than being a murderer"

So to a group of people interpreting the story there's just no way you're going to reconcile "morally grey" because both acts are seen as extremely offensive. It's going to be even harder to argue otherwise if people have real world experience of having consent taken from their agency or someone they know personally. Yes, this is a video game but people are likely to draw from experience that will color their interpretation of a story.

This is the best way I can think of why this particular argument tends to resurface so much and both sides refuse to reconcile over the interpretations of said story.

[OhNooo]

"Rape is better than being a murderer"
So to a group of people interpreting the story there's just no way you're going to reconcile "morally grey" because both acts are seen as extremely offensive. It's going to be even harder to argue otherwise if people have real world experience of having consent taken from their agency or someone they know personally. Yes, this is a video game but people are likely to draw from experience that will color their interpretation of a story.

Yes, this has been my whole issue with all of them - Venat, Emet and Hermes. All of them made decisions that took away the agency of other individuals and it seems like people have been debating on which ancient's actions are more horrible and which ones are the least horrible - and the one that is deemed the least horrible that can be justified/accepted is Venat's actions.

Several times I've seen people say things like "well there was no choice when faced with the end of the world" or..."it was either that or death." I think it comes down to differences in philosophy because I'm of the opinion that there are worse things than death. I would rather live a short life with as much freedom as possible and on my own terms than to live a very long life as a slave to someone or something with my autonomy stripped from me or with someone having a lot of control over me. For others, it doesn't matter how much they have to suffer as long as they're alive. They could undergo the worst atrocities ever and still be grateful that they are at least alive. So that's why for me, I see what Venat did just as bad as what the others did whereas someone else would see it as the least horrible out of what the others did.

So, it's definitely a matter of perspective at the end of the day.