Disappointed in one Endwalker Aspect [SPOILERS]

[Cleretic]

Hydaelyn may not have come across as a 'big bad' but she most definitely did temper us with her 'blessing of light'.

...no? No. This was never even remotely anything near the truth. All evidence ever asserted to be in favor of this was honestly nonsense, even before we learned in Endwalker what the Blessing of Light actually was.

In fact, I think the most telling argument against 'Hydaelyn tempered us' was always that, after we learned she was a primal, not one single person on any side of the story that would have reason to put these puzzle pieces together raised the notion that we might be tempered.

• Emet-Selch didn't, despite being the guy to say that he himself was tempered and who loves a play to make us seem equal.
• Elidibus didn't, despite being a primal himself and being desperate for justification that he was the good guy.
• Fandaniel didn't, despite having all the reason in the world to sow chaos and set us off.
• The Scions didn't, despite learning very specifically about the symptoms of tempering and how to detect them, and talking very directly about the WoL's relationship with Hydaelyn.

When the writers reject every opportunity to bring in the plot point you've decided is obvious, it might be time to admit you're not onto something.

[Veloran]

G'raha's time travel is NOT proof of multi-timeline travel, he DID NOT TRAVEL BETWEEN BRANCHES, instead he traveled back to the past of his OWN branch and that was the catalyst for the branching timelines.
G'raha time travels to change the past = creation of the branch timeline.

This may not even be true, given the existence of our own timeline is retroactively predicated on events spiraling out from G'raha's arrival, before he supposedly "branched" anything. As it is time travel in XIV is so poorly fleshed out that we can hardly say whether he created a new timeline or merely traveled to one in which he was always destined to arrive. Again, I will remind you that nowhere is it ever stated that travel between timelines is impossible, this is a raw supposition.

It is true we regularly do impossible things , and that our characters don't like to give up on saving people if they can help it but can we really?

It is certainly within WoL's character to try. But as to your meta talk, there is nothing preventing the writers from having written it that way. There was no previously established rules of time travel that prevent such a thing, and what G'raha did already flies in the face of the "letting go of the past" theme.

We don't have any proof i'll admit that, there is no proof she did anything. But the absence of proof is not proof of her doing nothing.

Intuitively if she had done something we would presume for it to have been made known. But no recollection of the events surrounding the Final Days even makes mention of her until after it was over, and it's destruction appears to have gone unmitigated. And even should she had done something, I would argue that her decision to sunder the world would have ultimately made such actions pointless.

Also do you remember at what point she says her people will never change, I do. It happens AFTER the final days, after they have summoned Zodiark and refused to move forward from their tragedy, not before but after. She didn't give up on her people changing until after her supposed inactivity. That I believe counters your point of her inaction due to giving up on her people.

I was not suggesting it was beforehand. Rather I was pointing out that for someone who says she believes in mankind's fortitude and thinks that "nothing is impossible", she did in fact decide that the Ancients would never change and had to be sundered. This runs in as much contradiction to her character as not taking action beforehand, if not moreso.

In fact, I think the most telling argument against 'Hydaelyn tempered us' was always that, after we learned she was a primal, not one single person on any side of the story that would have reason to put these puzzle pieces together raised the notion that we might be tempered.

Ardbert did.

[Vyrerus]

If that.

Are we shown how long everyone lives on each shard or that their measurements of time are the same? No. This is a case of the scriptwriters presenting a plot fact, but then not showing or writing what it really means into the story, because that would be too difficult to really show. Keep in mind every shard is locked away from the real universe by a space-time dimensional barrier that only allows aether, and perhaps Dynamis, to pass through it.

I'm sure the amount of aether is related to all things lively and vital on Etheirys. The story says as much, and it also says everyone used to have aether like that and live a long long time.

I had to go back and look at the scene to see it. Y'shtola says, "it may predate the empire." because it's, "Unlike anything she's ever seen." Emet-selch merely says that anyone pre-Sundering would remember it. I said it was the Ronkans, due to the later questline where we see the Meteorshower Mural with the Vieran Sorceress.

[Vyrerus]

...no? No. This was never even remotely anything near the truth. All evidence ever asserted to be in favor of this was honestly nonsense, even before we learned in Endwalker what the Blessing of Light actually was.

In fact, I think the most telling argument against 'Hydaelyn tempered us' was always that, after we learned she was a primal, not one single person on any side of the story that would have reason to put these puzzle pieces together raised the notion that we might be tempered.

• Emet-Selch didn't, despite being the guy to say that he himself was tempered and who loves a play to make us seem equal.
• Elidibus didn't, despite being a primal himself and being desperate for justification that he was the good guy.
• Fandaniel didn't, despite having all the reason in the world to sow chaos and set us off.
• The Scions didn't, despite learning very specifically about the symptoms of tempering and how to detect them, and talking very directly about the WoL's relationship with Hydaelyn.

When the writers reject every opportunity to bring in the plot point you've decided is obvious, it might be time to admit you're not onto something.

Just when you thought the Tempering fight was over. BAM! Someone still sees it that way, lmao. Oh no. xD

[Lyth]

I mean, I get that the Sundering is a bit of a downer. You were immortal and rich and had everything done at your whims. Now you have to work hard for your living and you even broke a nail. Sorry, that was disingenuous of me. Your level 20 sundered self was eaten by a vicious Aldgoat while out trying to scrape up Alumen for your impoverished family. Oh no! Anyways, the point is that there are consequences to everything. Doesn't that come with the territory?

'So many broken by this world, then by you. So, so many... Woe betide the man who stands opposed to the Weapon of Light, for death will be his reward. Death for him and his kin and all that he holds dear. Woe betide the man who stands with the Weapon of Light, for death will be his reward. Death for him and his kin and all that he holds dear. Like sands through the hourglass, everything that we fight so desperately to protect slips through our fingers... and what remains... what remains... is us. Only us, and the memory of our sin. To walk this path is to suffer. To sacrifice...'

And we all know the answer to that one. I've sins aplenty, aye, but regrets? Not so much. If Venat was the sort of person who was incapable of making a hard decision, then we would have no future to go to. Zodiark and the Endsinger live unhappily ever after. 'Do not seek forgiveness, for it will not ease the burden. It weighs as it should.' (I'm telling you, for someone who has the job levelled, Emet was a fool to skip through those cutscenes. 'But what of the lost? Do they not deserve to live again? They do. In our hearts and souls and our memories.' So much of this could have been averted.)

But what about alternative solutions?

In 'A Flower Upon Your Return,' Venat is the first to propose that you get Hermes on board by telling him about the Final Days. Emet independently comes with a similar idea and is in agreement. We know how that all turns out.

Between the end of 'Caging the Messenger' and 'Thou Must Live, Die, and Know', Venat sets out the terms of the conflict:

'As for Hermes... I think it unlikely he will create more entelechies. He poured much of himself into Meteion, and now that she and her sisters are gone - dissipated, in his mind - the grief must be unbearable. He will blame himself. He will believe that, had he never acknowledged his dissatisfaction with the world, then the Meteia would have never been born to suffer and die. The offer to join the Fourteen will be a welcome distraction, and one day hence, he will face the advent of the Final Days in the role of Fandaniel...

Our duty now is not to denounce Hermes for his misguided determination, or to convince Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus that they have been deceived. No, we must instead ensure that the experiences that Hermes sought to expunge are preserved. What remains in our memories alone will be our weapon against the Final Days. You must fight this battle in your age, and I in mine...'

And again, outside the doors of Propylaion:
'I must carefully consider who can be trusted, and bring them into the fold. Ordinarily, I wouldn't hesitate to call upon the Fourteen. However, it was the desire for a fair determination that drove Hermes to attempt to erase our memories; were he made aware of his actions, there is no telling whether he would remain a friend or become a foe. Alternately, we might try to alienate him from the Convocation. Yet in doing so, we would deprive ourselves of a brilliant mind who would be invaluable in the crises to come. Quite the dilemma... which is why I must work independently of the Convocation. Regardless of how we proceed, if we are to permanently avert the Final Days, we must be equal to Hermes' challenge. We must prove that mankind is worthy to exist.'

And that's not so different from Hyth's description of Azem:
'She encountered troubles too. Matters which she could simply have referred to the Convocation. But that was not her way. Nay, more often than not, she would call upon her comrades, and together resolve matters themselves.'

Now I suppose the next question is: Why not stay in Elpis, create a dream team of Venat, Azem, Hyth, Emet, Altima, and Hermes (okay, maybe not Hermes), and head on off to fight the final boss? Well, we know that the technology doesn't really exist yet due to the scarcity of Aether outside the star, as per our local flight/celestial expert, Hermes. Meteion was intentionally designed to interact with Dynamis specifically in order to allow for space travel. It took centuries worth of bun-years to develop an equivalent approach that would allow Aetheric beings to make the journey. And she has plenty to keep herself busy in the interim, like the Mexican standoff between Zodiark and the Endsinger. She gives you the time and the means to allow you to have your win. One battle in her age, and one battle in yours.

[Veloran]

I mean, I get that the Sundering is a bit of a downer. You were immortal and rich and had everything done at your whims. Now you have to work hard for your living and you even broke a nail. Sorry, that was disingenuous of me. Your level 20 sundered self was eaten by a vicious Aldgoat while out trying to scrape up Alumen for your impoverished family. Oh no! Anyways, the point is that there are consequences to everything. Doesn't that come with the territory?

By that logic Zenos and the Empire did nothing wrong. I get it's a bit of a downer that your nation was conquered and half your family was killed and the other half was sent to work camps. You were able to self-determinate and own your own land. Now you have to bow and scrape for the honor of maybe rebelling and being hunted like a dog. Oh no! Anyways, the point is that there are consequences for everything. The guy responsible doesn't even have any regrets! It was just his meaning in life.

Venat sets out the terms of the conflict:

I sure love when protagonists kowtow to the whims of antagonists and willingly debilitate their own causes for the sake of "fairness".

[Rannie]

Lyth.. you do realize that the Azem that Hythlodaeus was speaking about was the PC's past life.... OUR signature spell then was the ability to summon our friends to our side. Especially because when you play a male character he uses the HE pronouns when speaking about that Azem.

[MikkoAkure]

Are we shown how long everyone lives on each shard or that their measurements of time are the same? No. This is a case of the scriptwriters presenting a plot fact, but then not showing or writing what it really means into the story, because that would be too difficult to really show. Keep in mind every shard is locked away from the real universe by a space-time dimensional barrier that only allows aether, and perhaps Dynamis, to pass through it.

If your theory was correct, then it would be a noticeable fact throughout history that people gain longer lives after each Calamity but there’s nothing at all to suggest that. That would be like saying that people died of old age before their 10th birthday immediately following the Sundering and that’s just silly.

Also, there are Viis who themselves say are over 100 years old on the First. If they were a fraction of the Viera of the Source then they wouldn’t live that long. We’re also shown that measurements of time are the same. The Scions all reflect on the years they spent there. You would think that some of the brightest people from a different world would be aware of time being different or a year being a fraction as short. We’re also given ages of a couple of characters from the First in comparison to those from the Source and not only do they look that age, they look like the same age as the characters from the Source.

If that was an actual possible theory, then there would be clues somewhere, but there’s not. It’s not even a matter of “difficulty”, there’s no point in writing supporting information for something that doesn’t exist. I’d need actual proof, not “my theory is so difficult for the writers to put in the game that they didn’t”.

I had to go back and look at the scene to see it. Y'shtola says, "it may predate the empire." because it's, "Unlike anything she's ever seen." Emet-selch merely says that anyone pre-Sundering would remember it. I said it was the Ronkans, due to the later questline where we see the Meteorshower Mural with the Vieran Sorceress.

The whole point of Y’shtola saying that the cave paintings predate the empire is because the materials used are “older”. You’re twisting the source material and quoted it wrong. The full quote:
Y’shtola: “The murals. If I am not mistaken, they predate the empire.”
Minfilia (Ryne): “How can you tell?”
Y’shtola: “A peculiarity of the paint. Most are made from mineral-based pigments, but whatever was used here is older than anything I have ever seen.”

And by the way, the Viis sorceress Tiuna had the Echo. That’s why she saw the meteor shower and why it’s in her mural. At least to me, the murals don’t look the same either. Different art styles. And one is painted in a cavern wall that was eventually developed into a shrine devoted to “the wisdom of the ancients”, the other is a mural painted on the walls of a ruin itself.

[Vyrerus]

I mean, I get that the Sundering is a bit of a downer

The WoL's inner turmoil manifesting as a literal attack on the self is a bit different in prospect and principle than Venat hiding the truth from those she claims to love. I do love your determination to insert the DRK lore into a lot of your lore posts, but you can't forget the rest of the bit.

"...Justice demands no less."

FRAY: "These scars and sins are ours to bear, not to deny!"
"But you, Boy, I deny! Yours is the coward's way!"

HYDAELYN: "There was no kindness or justice in the tragedy I wrought."

So they don't match up, quite right, you see?

[Vyrerus]

If your theory was correct

It's something they keep vague, because it is hard to show. It's like how half-races are possible, but they've only ever shown Hilda. Whenever they present something hard to write and account for in the story/gameplay, they generally tend to shy away from it or mention it again vaguely in later sidequests. The time passage for the Scions was written to show that the time drift between the Source and the Shards is real, as the entirety of Shadowbringers takes place relatively quickly (like what, a couple of days? I don't remember what Tataru says when you return at the end) by Source time. The Viera's age was to keep the FFXII reference intact when they decided to include the race in the game, and so they also used it in the story so that the Viera on the First can tell us events from 100 "years" ago.

Also keep in mind that the Scions were taking the time passage on the First for granted by those who told them what day it was, considering that for the "years" they spent there were hounded by a sky that never darkened. So you tell me, how long is a year in Norvrandt? How many days? How many months? And then, in the Source?

I was answering you casually, so I didn't bother getting the direct quote. Also, just because they predate the Empire, doesn't mean they predate the Ronkans. For instance, the Garleans existed before their Empire and had a culture that did things, before their empire.

As far as Tiuna's mural goes, it is Y'shtola herself who compares it to the murals in Qitana Ravel. /shrug