[Endwalker Spoilers] MSQ Hearbreak and Dissillusionment. [Personal Opinion Vent]

[EirolOcarrol]

I don't know where to put this, but as it relates to the story/MSQ, I though this might be the best place to vent. It's not exactly easy to post walls of text on Twitter. And a lot of people don't click Twitlonger.

I know this will be controversial and contentious. But a forum generally seems like the best sort of place to put this.

Endwalker is a great expansion that everybody loves. And I don't decry that at all.
But I had to take breaks, the story has gotten more and more dark with every expansion. This is the first time I had to take week long breaks due to the depression the MSQ had induced in me. I get that it is about the end of the world, and moving past pain and finding hope is the literal theme of the expansion.

But I started to question sometimes why I was playing a video game when I wasn't experiencing fun. Endwalker was suffering. It was painful. It was depressing. It was everything you would expect from an end of the world. A finale to the building story more brutal and grotesque and cruel than anything before it.

I never expected a Final Fantasy game to be happy go lucky and free from tragedy. It's not a Slice of Life Comedy. But I was left feeling that Final Fantasy XIV has transformed into something else entirely than what it began as. And wondering if I should move on to something else. But with my sunk cost fallacy and attachment. I liked being a Lalafell. I had for years. I liked Hydaelyn since the very beginning. I became very attached to the world, just like Vana'diel. I wanted another Vana'diel, but with HD graphics.

Final Fantasy XIV looks better than Final Fantasy XI. The world has more detail. The races are more varied, the designs are richer. Lalafells look better than Tarutaru. Miqote look better than Mithra. And there are male Mithra this time. The Black Shroud is beautiful. XIV is an easier game to control and navigate. With many serious quality of life improvements over XI, especially in terms of things like user interface. You can jump! And there are great places to do so!

And thankfully, Final Fantasy XIV hasn't decided to turn my second favourite character, Hydaelyn, evil.

I really like many of the characters. This is a subjective gender experience, but as someone who likes having women leaders and caretaker figures in video games to look up to, XIV was wonderful, especially in the beginning. Some people might have even unfortunately seen it as a little bit "misandrist", if there really even is such a thing. Most of the heroes and leaders were women, while admittedly most of the villains were a little too male leaning. People complained it was a little too black and white morally, having our band of largely female heroes and leaders who are morally good, and "generic" at the time, people complained, Asican and Evil Empire villains(who were mostly male". I get that it was a bit one sided and black and white, perhaps even a bit unbalanced.

But it was nice for me. A nice Mothercrystal Goddess, symbolizing a good world. Of Square Enix's project and creation symbolically. Her love for the world reflecting Square Enix's love of the world and desire to see people enjoy playing it, even if it meant crashing Dalamud and starting over. Struggling to win back the image of the game expressed not so subtly through various characters like City States, Hydaelyn, Loisoix, ect.

Hydaelyn, Nanamo, Merlwyb, Senna, Minfilia. All leaders of their own sectors. Against some, admittedly simple and often one dimensional(and often skewing male) threat to the realm.

I could feel this importance of empathy and heroism in contrast to conquest and elitism. Asicans were cruel, elitist, and selfish. Willing to use others for their own gain instead of empathizing. A contrast to Hydaelyn's symbolized empathy at the time. As someone who saw and still sees empathy as an absolute good, this was important to me.

It may not have been the most challenging of ideas, but that wasn't what I was looking for. I was looking for a video game. A hobby. Fun.

It always had dark moments, but there was always so much brightness, hope, and heroism. It was never too brutal, too dark, too depressing.

And I felt more like my character was just some small part of Eorzea. Before moving on to the wide world with expansion. Eorzea was big. Eorzea was important. These leaders and organizations were bigger than me. Lasting forces of nations, with grand histories and cultures I had yet to uncover, and play some small part in as an adventure in. Feeling small, in comparison to an eternal mothercrystal. Small, in comparison to grand sprawling cultures, with histories to personally uncover. And, even in the case of the Scions of the Seventh Dawn, while a hero, still considered underneath a leader.

Growth is always important. One wants to feel stronger in an RPG. Or have character growth. And not be just a rookie adventurer forever.

But now I feel overpowered, especially in a narrative sense. Saving the world so many times, now saving the universe. Warrior of Light, that can make sense in the context of an MMORPG in that there were the Warriors of Light, many, who played some small part in the battle of Carteneau. You weren't "THE Warrior of Light", you were, 'a' Warrior of Light. Someone with a gift, but still in service to something bigger than yourself, a continuation of those forgotten Warriors of Light. Not THE hero, but a potential hero.

Now we're back to MMORPG stories, that, no matter how Final Fantasy XIV is lauded for its story, still falls into the same themepark bizarreness of sharing the same "chosen hero" as every other player. Worse yet, %90 of the content is locked behind this MSQ. And that load of MSQ to collect to get to other content, has only gotten thicker with each expansion.

Each expansion, taking away opportunities to engage in sandbox, personal expression content outside of the MSQ. If the MSQ isn't your personal thing, you just want to fish, or farm, or craft, that's too bad. All is gated behind it.

And with each MSQ, the content like that you made be there for, the desire to feel like you're a Fisher or a Merchant, is taken away by the ever increasing narrative that you're not your own character. You're the hero. You're the Warrior of Light, not a Warrior of Light, THE Warrior of Light. And the Warrior of Darkness. And Azem, part of some grand history race, the cheapens and overshadows the cultures of Eorzea and the world today.

You don't get to feel like your own character. Because the MSQ is too busy telling you how important it is to do anything. And that same MSQ not telling you that you're an individual, but telling you that you, player, are Azem. Which will never mesh well in an MMORPG where everyone is given a linear story. Linear stories just don't work well in multiplayer games, they're jarring. You know you're not the chosen hero, you're another player, making your way through the world.

And yet, instead of embracing that, XIV has gone headfirst into this problem of the genre. To the point of making you feel like you can't be your own character, which is supposed to be the point.

I didn't ask to be "the hero", I didn't ask to be Azem. And I'm actually really disappointing by the direction the story has gone.

Hydaelyn was a great symbolic character to make you feel small. That there was a maternal character watching over you, that you would always, no matter what, be weaker and smaller than. And that the cultures that made up here world was important, beautiful, expansive, and worth protecting. Her symbolizing the development team and their love for the game.

It was heartbreaking, then, to see Hydaelyn to be revealed to be a Primal. It might not have been so bad if to challenge our assumption as players, that Primals we've been fighting, were always a bad thing. But Shadowbringers undermined this symbolism is horrible ways. Making many people sympathize more with the villains, and many deciding or wanting Hydaelyn to be the villain. This male dominated Ascian convocation became the "Unsung, misunderstood heroes" of Final Fantasy XIV to many people. A glorious, superior group of tall, learned, logical men. Who simply wanted to to restore their superior people and culture in comparison to our tiny, pathetic sundered planet.

I have never liked this Amaurot civilization. They weren't the races that we the player can play as, at best they're a tall version of Hyur. This implies it's better to be tall, and better to be Hyur. And this makes the cultures they built in the beginning, seem small and insignificant in comparison to these Greek, ancient Hyur looking people. It makes it feel like if you're not a Hyur, you're somehow lesser. Final Fantasy XIV should be sending the message that all player characters are valid, and that diversity is good. Instead, this cast of what was largely male villains are treated as our superiors, and morally grey at worst.

While I'm relieved that people's suspicions or desire for the Maternal figure of Hydaelyn to be further "deconstructed" for the sake of "good storytelling" or even turned evil. I am glad that wish was not granted, or that suspicion proved. It was heartbreaking to see people villainize her, when this was the opposite of what I found comforting about XIV, and came here for to begin with. I went into Shadowbringers with a negative outlook about it long before playing it, simply because of the deleterious impact it had on what I loved about the game.

But while thankfully that did not happen. Thankfully they (rightfully) did not butcher and destroy what was good about her character by turning her evil. They arguably did just as bad. If not even worse!

Instead of being the coddling mother she was best as. A maternal figure of empathy that symbolized love for the world. She was killed. Empathy itself has been villainized! And they pitted her against pure empathy, as someone posing a challenge to her children. Much of what her symbolic position she held in 1.0 and A Realm Reborn(an incredibly underrated world), was replaced by Meteion. Hydaelyn symbolized love for the world then. Instead, we got our empathetic character in Meteion, who symbolizes childhood innocence, purity, and an idealized childlike sensitivity, rather than by a maternal figure. And that empathetic character was turned most destructive villain in the series, because the source of the Sound and the Final Days, due to being empathetic.

And in which Hydaelyn essentially, fights against her. And sheds much of her Maternalism. And she dies. She dies a hero, but she still dies. It's still a nice gesture that her Mothercrystal saves our world as a vessel of hope among despair. And that she tells us important things like seeking Joy in Darkness. And symbolizes Hope, which is very important.

I still find it absolutely gross that they took something good and important, like empathy, and utterly villainized it in this innocent girl. It's twisted and wrong and disgusting to try to portray something good like empathy as a force for evil and destruction in Meteion and Hermes.

I would argue that people who aren't on Team Hydaelyn, who wanted her to be morally grey at best. And further redemption of the Paternal Greek men, the Ancients/Amarotines/Ascians. I would argue they got more of that than many realized. Hydaelyn's message about the importance of both good and bad, of suffering being a force for good, is more than a little bit questionable. It sounds like the self justifications of someone who knows she is burdened with stopping the Final Days. She knows that she lives in a universe full of despair, so sets out forcing people to come to terms with it. And by doing so, makes people suffer. It comes off as her now being a mouthpiece for the developers trying to send the message that "it's important to experience great despair and overcome it to grow as a person", but if you disagree with that narrative, it feels misguided or biased. And her choice indeed seems morally grey.

If one is an ethical hedonist utilitarian, one might not agree with that worldview. And how this is the narrative of the story that Hydaelyn is being forced to pushed. That a Yin Yang balance of suffering and Joy gives life meaning. And that "too much or too little empathy is a bad thing, actually".

But Meteion is like my ideal self. Someone who just wants to be friends, make others happy, and empathize and share in other people's feelings. I'm even more horrified by the writing team villainizing that than I would have been if they made Hydaelyn a villain. Because they're not just challenging a character or changing them, they're putting forth an idea I find repugnant. It's disgusting to suggest empathy is actually a harmful thing.

But pulling back from that a bit, since this is a stream of conciseness rant, and not as organized as it should be. I'm just dishearten by the direction of all of this. I'm in a linear story, that I'm disappointed by the direction of. I don't like how it has changed, what it has done to my favourite characters. I don't like the message it sends now. I don't like the fact that any personal self expression content is locked behind this MSQ, once size fits all chosen hero narrative. One that is getting brutally more and more depressing to the point it is starting to more resemble Made in Abyss than the simple adventure it started as. And I don't like the fact that everything we've been introduced to has been cheapened by its direction.

The world felt large and we felt small. Now we feel unimaginably large and the world we've seen feels so tiny and insignificant. A little sundered speck in a depressing universe. The Great Filter and the long term effects of Dark Energy is definitely an interesting thing for Final Fantasy of all things to explore.

But I play video games to express, create, and express myself. To have fun. To escape the Paternalistic, cruel world I live in, for something that has Maternal, empathetic energy. I didn't know 10 years ago that the plan was to culminate the story by showing a mom turn into a demon and murder her children and seeing a kind leader being eaten alive, a South Asian culture being brutalized and made torture porn to send the message that despair is important to give live meaning, and must be experienced and overcome to experience the good parts. A person can already experience this brutality and hope by becoming a nurse who treats Covid19 patients. And I would much rather do that, help real people and suffer those real, meaningful sorrows. Than play a video game and have an utterly horrible, unfun time. I understand some people want to be challenged by their fiction. Not all want the challenge of living through being a doctor or nurse in a pandemic, but love the catharsis of being emotionally challenged in a video game. I'm not one of those people. I wanted a fun, feel-good, escapist adventure when I first signed up for Final Fantasy XIV.

And not only is that not what Final Fantasy XIV's story has developed into. It is required in order to get into the other content. I can't just go fish and farm for ingredients in these new areas. They are always locked behind this MSQ. And this is the most brutal one yet. I want to go fishing, I want to be a rice farmer, a merchant, and Immortal Flame, but it's all locked behind a brutal MSQ, that teaches against that very thing. I'm not supposed to be an Ul'dah soldier, a crop farmer, a merchant. I'm supposed to be the busy hero, Azem, saving the world that didn't need to be always threatened to begin with, by attacking an innocent bird child for the crime and sin of being empathetic.

I'm not playing video games to attack innocent children who are shoehorned into being villains to support a misguided message about empathy and balance between suffering. Attacking children for their empathy is kind of gross and uncomfortable. Seeing that empathy being turned into a villainous trait is even more gross.

I'm not playing video games to see Indian or South Asian families be ripped apart and eaten alive by demons.

I don't like the ancients, or Amaurot. Their lack of empathy and willingness to sacrifice life was rather gross. I'm really disappointed that all of the races that we play as are a new creation. I'm disappointed by the fact that I'm in any way related to Azem. I'm disappointed by the fact that all of the playable races of the game are a new invention. I wish the ancients weren't our ancestors. I'm disappointed Hydaelyn/Venat is one of them. I'm disappointed by the fact I can't do anything without continuing the MSQ.

Endwalker made me cry, multiple times. It made me angry, it made me furious. It made me depressed. It made me take breaks. It broke my heart. And I'm sure for a lot of people that's proof of how objectively good it is, it made them feel things. But all fiction does that, does it not? If I'm absolutely honest to myself, and about myself to you all. I absolutely hated most of my time with Endwalker. It was not fun. It was painful. And every year I'm starting to wonder more and more why I keep playing, and if the only reason I haven't unsubbed is the sunk cost fallacy. I've put hundreds upon hundreds of hours and hundreds upon hundreds of dollars into this brutal game that is utterly painful and miserable.

I really wish, I never made the mistake of starting this game and becoming invested and addicted. This game was never made for me. Or at least it is transformed into something that gives me pain rather than fun.

[EirolOcarrol]

This is a controversial, emotional wall of text that I don't expect most people to read, much less agree with. I'm certainly not trolling, this is my main account that I've spent thousands of hours in. It's rambling and incoherent. And I don't expect a positive response.

But it is all from the heart, I guarantee that. I am miserable and disappointed. I'm sick of Endwalker and I never want to experience that journey ever again. I am so sick of the MSQ.

[Brightamethyst]

Too much empathy can be a problem. Especially if, like in Meteon's case, you start bringing yourself down and taking everyone else with you. There's a big difference between understanding someone's pain and making yourself and those around you equally miserable. That's what Meteon was doing. It wasn't intentional, but it still had to be stopped.

[redheadturk]

You are not likely to find too many that agree with you. I certainly don't. I love being the hero that crafts or gathers to relax on my off time. I love that I was once someone who was important to the unsundered world. I feel sorry for the Ascians, now that I know their full stories, and I for one would love to have had a split timeline where the Convocation and the remainder of their people had a chance at unsundered happiness. IMHO what Venat did was wrong, and just as much genocide as what the Ascians were doing. I live for angsty stories, and for shades of gray, because it's what makes the story believeable.

If that isn't something you like, then maybe XIV isn't the game for you.

[Theozilla]

I'm sorry that Endwalker was such an unpleasant experience for you, and if that was your experience, then that was your experience. But the estimation/conclusion that Endwalker's narrative and themes are demonizing empathy, made Hydaelyn less maternal, villainized children, and/or that suffering/despair is a good thing that is "needed", I would have to protest and argue that is a grievous misunderstanding/misinterpretation of what Endwalker's story was/is doing.

I am not personally interested in getting into a detailed debate on the matter, so instead I will provide a link to another individual's essay on Endwalker's story and themes, which I think is a great breakdown and analysis of Endwalker's major narrative themes:

Endwalker, the Nature of Suffering, and the Buddhist Concept of Dukha

[Denishia]

While I don't agree with everything, I do share similar reservations about Azem and tying our WoL to Azem (my biggest fear is that trend continuing and strengthening), nor do I like the Ancients or their culture or visual designs and really hope the game moves away from the focus on them because that is an important part of Eorzea's history but only a small part. The Unsundered are to me like ARR Alphinaud: a similar sheltered adolescent arrogance, a desire to improve the world contrasted to a distastefully patronizing treatment of others, and the blundering disaster caused by those traits. And similarly, that I vastly prefer the Alphinaud of HW onwards because of character development and a better costume.

I'm curious and hopeful how the 6.1 adventures start and how the game hints that we are shifting back to a smaller-scale adventurer role. Also EW was very heavy not just visually but thematically closer to SF than Fantasy. Which FF games have been a blend of both genres, but I would like the pendulum to swing back.

I also agree that there is something ..annoying about having the UnSundered NPCs in their ugly shapeless robes be Hyur/Viera/Elezen models all given Hyur ears and then the side-quests show that the Arkasadora and Lupin and probably then most 'Beast Tribes' have their roots in Ancients' creations, therefore undoing the MSQ efforts to repudiate the xenophobia created by Ul'dan merchants and championed by the Garleans, also creating an unspoken hierarchy with people choosing to play their WoL as a Hyur as opposed to Hrothgar.

[Theodric]

Each to their own, I guess. I think some people just read too deeply into some things and so see stuff that arguably isn't there. I do rather suspect that any game, movie or TV show is made all the more enjoyable when not viewed through a lens that allows for anything and everything to be seen as 'problematic'.

I have my beef with some elements of the story and certain characters, but aside from a bit of grumbling here and there I just shrug and move on with my day.

[Pofruin]

Few points.
I personally see no way to interpret Hydelyns character as anything but Heroic. All said and done she held her Hope against Despair when all Unsundered have already succumbed to it.
Empathy is not vilified, but rather shown as equally powerful as logic. And equally dangerous. One must not forget that Empathy was also used to resolve the crisis.
Since we didn't go to the edge of the Universe to defeat Meteon. We went there to save her from despair.
The main message I took away from the story is that one cannot loose hope no matter what. The soil both Despair and Hope grow is basically the same. So you will most likely find them together. And should not lose one and succumb to the other. It's not Despair that Hydelyn was cultivating all those years after all.

[Veloran]

I'm sorry that Endwalker was such an unpleasant experience for you, and if that was your experience, then that was your experience. But the estimation/conclusion that Endwalker's narrative and themes are demonizing empathy, made Hydaelyn less maternal, villainized children, and/or that suffering/despair is a good thing that is "needed", I would have to protest and argue that is a grievous misunderstanding/misinterpretation of what Endwalker's story was/is doing.

I am not personally interested in getting into a detailed debate on the matter, so instead I will provide a link to another individual's essay on Endwalker's story and themes, which I think is a great breakdown and analysis of Endwalker's major narrative themes:

Endwalker, the Nature of Suffering, and the Buddhist Concept of Dukha

While that's an interesting read, we should keep in mind that the Japanese interpretation of Buddhism, the cycle of reincarnation, and Dukha is intermingled with Shinto beliefs and is actually quite a bit different from some other forms of Buddhist thought. For example that page suggests that the concept of suffering in Dukha isn't so much akin to Western beliefs in regards to suffering-as-punishment - Whereas actually there's quite a bit of overlap in the context of the cycle of karmic reincarnation. Indeed Buddhist mode of thought is actually in significant contradiction to the ideals expressed in Endwalker, as the highest Buddhist ideal is to escape the cycle of reincarnation and Dukha though Nirvana, which is in essence what Meteion was attempting to do by ending the cycle of life throughout the universe. The beliefs expressed in the game are more similar to Western Nihilist thought really, with the attestment that there is no meaning beyond what meaning one gives themselves.

Aside from all that, it does bother me a bit that they decided to go into the realm of combating far-reaching universal concepts and ideals. It always seemed to me that above all else the overriding ideal of the game was freedom in all it's forms, including freedom of thought, and Yoshida has even said this directly. And while I don't agree with OP in the notion that showing the flaws of empathetic thinking is a bad thing, they did really put all their eggs in the "suffering is good" basket. That is to say I didn't really feel like the game was giving me the freedom to reach my own conclusion, rather it was attempting to hamfistedly push one perspective and answer above all others. Oftentimes in a way that was detrimental or contradictory to past parts of the narrative.

[Theozilla]

While that's an interesting read, we should keep in mind that the Japanese interpretation of Buddhism, the cycle of reincarnation, and Dukha is intermingled with Shinto beliefs and is actually quite a bit different from some other forms of Buddhist thought. For example that page suggests that the concept of suffering in Dukha isn't so much akin to Western beliefs in regards to suffering-as-punishment - Whereas actually there's quite a bit of overlap in the context of the cycle of karmic reincarnation. Indeed Buddhist mode of thought is actually in significant contradiction to the ideals expressed in Endwalker, as the highest Buddhist ideal is to escape the cycle of reincarnation and Dukha though Nirvana, which is in essence what Meteion was attempting to do by ending the cycle of life throughout the universe. The beliefs expressed in the game are more similar to Western Nihilist thought really, with the attestment that there is no meaning beyond what meaning one gives themselves.

Aside from all that, it does bother me a bit that they decided to go into the realm of combating far-reaching universal concepts and ideals. It always seemed to me that above all else the overriding ideal of the game was freedom in all it's forms, including freedom of thought, and Yoshida has even said this directly. And while I don't agree with OP in the notion that showing the flaws of empathetic thinking is a bad thing, they did really put all their eggs in the "suffering is good" basket. That is to say I didn't really feel like the game was giving me the freedom to reach my own conclusion, rather it was attempting to hamfistedly push one perspective and answer above all others. Oftentimes in a way that was detrimental or contradictory to past parts of the narrative.

While some schools of Buddhism put more emphasis on the concept of karmic reincarnation than others, that concept is generally kinda its own thing separate from the concept of duḥkha, which is more about the nature of conditioned things than the nature of karma.

Also I have to disagree that Endwalker's ideals are contradicting Buddhist thought, while Endwalker (and FFXIV in general) may be unconcerned with the ideal/goal of escaping reincarnation/rebirth and certainly isn't trying to replicate all the features of Buddhism 1-to-1 (Greek mythology and Pandora's box is also undeniably one of the other major influences on Endwalker's themes), it's also not framing Meteion's conclusion as being the same as reaching Nirvana. What Meteion was doing is more like a inversion/twisted version of attempting to reach Nirvana, it's very similar to Seymour Guado's conclusion in FFX, who is also paralleled to the Buddha but has instead come to the opposite conclusion/epiphany that the Buddha did (the Buddha and Buddhism are largely agreed to be not pro-suicide/death seeking/anti-life philosophies). Meteion essentially made the common mistake of conflating "no-self" with "non-self/not-self" (anattā), and as the twins point out in their sacrifice, Meteion is still very much ruled by her fears and aversions and exalts ignorance, which are among the central concepts reaching Nirvana liberates/comes into harmony with.
Venat/Hydaelyn essentially fulfills the thematic role of a bodhisattva in contrast.

And I really disagree with the argument that Endwalker is promoting the idea that "suffering is good", it's arguing that suffering (duḥkha) is an inherent aspect of life (as expressed in stuff like the Three Marks of Existence and Four Noble Truths) and is inextricably linked to the joys and pleasures in life and even hope itself. But that's not the same as saying that "bad things that happen to people are actually good" or that people should suffer, rather, is it an acknowledgement of the reality/truth that people will encounter/experience suffering (duḥkha) in some form or another as part of being a living thing/soul, and how to live with that (i.e. the learning to "walk" expression in Endwalker).