*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Alleo]

You argue that they have it better, they should be better. Personally, I argue they have it better... they could do so, soo much worse just for their personal amusement. I won't say they couldn't be better, but I think its safe to say they are doing damn near the best one could expect from an imperfect society blessed with near godlike powers.

My argument is more that we cant just be like "but look the sundered do it too so the Ancients are not bad by doing it" when in reality the sundered simply dont have creation magic thus need to kill the animals for survivals. (And that they are at least part of the circle of life thus they may kill but also get killed in return)

I just dont like that whenever a fault of the Ancient is pointed out, its said that we do that too while not taking into account that one side is basically god like while the other struggles to survive. I am fine with the Ancients. I love Elpis and I love that SE used the side quest in that area but also in the fake Amaurot to show us that Emets view of them was tainted.



Its just pretty clear with that Zone that their society was not perfect. That they indeed did see other life forms in a different light. That does not make them absolute horrible people that should be wiped out. Its just give them faults. But as soon as one mentions such faults there are points how we are not better.

[Lersayil]

The main challenge that Hermes throws at us is: Can you learn to respect and value life?

Are you sure that was his point? From where I'm standing Hermes just wanted the Ancients to face absolute despair via planetary annihilation, with no clue from where or how it came to be, or how to fight it. Failing the test meant death. That is a feat the Sundered couldn't manage either. Calling it fair or even a test is ridiculous on his part.

...

I just dont like that whenever a fault of the Ancient is pointed out, its said that we do that too while not taking into account that one side is basically god like while the other struggles to survive. I am fine with the Ancients. I love Elpis and I love that SE used the side quest in that area but also in the fake Amaurot to show us that Emets view of them was tainted.

...

Personally I would argue that even if we adjust for basic living conditions and world state, they still did better. They are by no means perfect, but given the pitfalls their powers pose, I would posit that they did the near best that could be expected without getting classified as perfect.

That said, the Sundered end of the equation is pretty slanted due to the constant Ascian interference. While I lean in the direction that they wouldn't be much better off without the constant calamities, that itself might just be my misanthropy showing.

In the end its set up to be arguable. The story demands it to be, weighing on the Sundered side more and more closer to the end. Not because the Ancients turn out to be worse, but because a good portion of the Sundered get their sh*t together for the greater good. Still wouldn't say they've reached equal footing, but the potential is starting to show.

[Lauront]

I'll get back to you on that as soon as my Hunt Train is over.

Hopefully you remembered to go as a Reaper, with soul-hungry avatar in tow.

[Rulakir]

I've said before it seems ridiculous to me to judge the ancients when our culture isn't any better. Just because we don't have creation magic doesn't mean we don't try to act like gods. Breeding is a good example.

As far as respecting and valuing life, the egg industry tosses male chicks into grinders because they're useless and millions of people support this. Humans value humans, companion animals to a lesser extent, and anything else is usually not given any thought.

[Lyth]

Are you sure that was his point? From where I'm standing Hermes just wanted the Ancients to face absolute despair via planetary annihilation, with no clue from where or how it came to be, or how to fight it. Failing the test meant death. That is a feat the Sundered couldn't manage either. Calling it fair or even a test is ridiculous on his part.

'Let us settle this with a determination. In my authority as chief overseer of Elpis, I will make a judgement on man's fitness to exist. If he can learn to value all life and retain his will to live, even should his end be justified, he will surely find a way to avert his demise. If not, he will perish from the star.'

Hermes on some level wants to believe, and he wants to be proven wrong. When he sends the Meteia off in search of answers, he tells you that he expects to share good news with you. And even when you find him at the end of his journey, a broken husk of his former self ('The man I was would weep for what I have become.') he still can hardly believe that the nihilistic answer he receives ('After all these years, was this the answer that I was hoping for?') One of the things that makes his character so poignant is how ill suited he is to play the villain. The Hermes that we meet in Elpis is a bumbling nerd, altogether too soft-hearted for his own good. We find him dangling upside-down off a tree when he tries to rescue his lost ambystoma. In each scenario that we encounter on Elpis, he's usually not the one to solve the problem, but he is usually able to pinpoint what the moral stakes are. And it's primarily through his growing sense of alienation and frustration that we get the sense of the wrongness of this place. And yet - there is no adequate way to voice his dissent. It's always beautiful.

So fixated are we upon the duty that we do not pause to question the method. Pain and suffering... confusion and despair writ plain in the eyes of those poor creatures. Yet no one sees. We turn a blind eye and carry on in blissful ignorance. Naught amiss, and always - always the blossoms shine pure and white. A contradiction so blatant I could scream. Want to scream. How can you all accept this... aberration!? Then I wonder... am I the aberration for thinking thus? And I am filled with dread...

Every utopian society that the Meteia encountered had one thing in common; the sense that their way of doing things and their approach to living was the best. They're beautiful and yet uncomfortable at the same time. Amaurot was no different from the rest. Many of the ones we see very deliberately are reflections of and condemnations on our own society. The Dead Ends in particular fires off some absolutely savage shots with its 'Freedom Fighters' and 'Peacekeepers', culminating in the final standing soldier by the exit cheering 'I did it! I killed them all! <long pause> I... killed them all...' It's fine to see things in their respective ideologies that are admirable. But I think that they're best admired from a distance.

[Lersayil]

'Let us settle this with a determination. In my authority as chief overseer of Elpis, I will make a judgement on man's fitness to exist. If he can learn to value all life and retain his will to live, even should his end be justified, he will surely find a way to avert his demise. If not, he will perish from the star.'

That is what he said. But was the logic sound behind it? His test did not at all test the Ancients values of life. If anything, the Ancient almost overcame his blind test by a method he would've deemed a failure via Zodiark.

He had a nihilistic breakdown compounded by his existing depression. Instead of making the rest of his race face the same existential crisis (from which they actually could've learned something constructive), he pushed a much worse "test" upon them. One where the correct answer was supposed to be unflinching, baseless and blind hope in the face of planetary annihilation that stemmed from their own powers by utterly unknown means. That is an unreasonable expectation to a imperfect race, one the Sundered didn't live up to either.

As for the rest, I understand the message the writers are trying to push, I just don't agree with it, and posit that even within the confines of the story their argument isn't perfect.

[Theodric]

As for the rest, I understand the message the writers are trying to push, I just don't agree with it, and posit that even within the confines of the story their argument isn't perfect.

To be fair, I'm not even convinced that they're trying to push a specific message. They've said as much in the past that they're entertainers rather than philosophers. They've also often highlighted that many of the major conflicts within the story can be attributed as a 'matter of perspective' rather than 'good' and 'evil'.

[Jandor]

Basically the sundered are part of the circle of life, just like the other creatures. The Ancients were above it and still just destroyed those that they did not like. And I guess I can accept that with the wolves. It would be horrible for all if these would be released and bascially destroyed a whole other creature race or more. (Of course the question remains on why such beings were even created in the first place) But seemingly they are also taken down if they dont fit into the perfect box the Ancients have built for them.

As a side note: I found it very interesting how in the big side quest in that zone, the NPCs really like our ideas because they are so fresh and do admit that with their long lifespans their creativity and new ideas are getting bad. I think that might have been another small hint that at the end they might have ended like the race from the dungeon, when they finally created their perfect world. Of course that does not mean that they should die, after all the journey to it is important too.

Seems like they were basically made for a laugh to be honest.

To give them due credit, the researchers in Elpis seem to be fairly focused on creating new flora and fauna for a purpose, wider society however seems to submit ideas based mostly on what trends are in vogue at the moment. It's mentioned at one point that they keep getting weirder and weirder shark based concepts to test, not because of any great need for new sharks, but because shark concepts are currently the in thing among Amaurotians.

It's funny to think that somewhere out there, there was probably an Ancient showing off to her friends: *Holds up concept* 'I made a shark but stuck wings on its head, XD I'm so random lol'

[Lersayil]

To be fair, I'm not even convinced that they're trying to push a specific message. They've said as much in the past that they're entertainers rather than philosophers. They've also often highlighted that many of the major conflicts within the story can be attributed as a 'matter of perspective' rather than 'good' and 'evil'.

Maybe, but I do feel like they have at least an overarching vague message usually. Hope, peace, compromise, the value of knowledge, hear, feel, think etc. Stuff I can usually get behind.

This time around it kinda felt more specific and hamfisted, but it might just be my imagination or personal bias on the subjects.

wider society however seems to submit ideas based mostly on what trends are in vogue at the moment. It's mentioned at one point that they keep getting weirder and weirder shark based concepts to test, not because of any great need for new sharks, but because shark concepts are currently the in thing among Amaurotians.

It's funny to think that somewhere out there, there was probably an Ancient showing off to her friends: *Holds up concept* 'I made a shark but stuck wings on its head, XD I'm so random lol'

As long as those concepts are subjected to the same criteria as the more practical concepts, I think this is actually a great thing on their part. It would mean that the creation process is open to everyone, but still subjected to extensive testing and regulation. Who knows, the public might come up with something revolutionary just by accident!

[YianKutku]

I've said before it seems ridiculous to me to judge the ancients when our culture isn't any better. Just because we don't have creation magic doesn't mean we don't try to act like gods. Breeding is a good example.

The Ancients, as represented by Emet-Selch as self-proclaimed spokesman, and who is also the subject of this thread, certainly felt free to judge us by their own arbitrary standards.