*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Lyth]

Are you sure that was his point? From where I'm standing Hermes just wanted the Ancients to face absolute despair via planetary annihilation, with no clue from where or how it came to be, or how to fight it. Failing the test meant death. That is a feat the Sundered couldn't manage either. Calling it fair or even a test is ridiculous on his part.

'Let us settle this with a determination. In my authority as chief overseer of Elpis, I will make a judgement on man's fitness to exist. If he can learn to value all life and retain his will to live, even should his end be justified, he will surely find a way to avert his demise. If not, he will perish from the star.'

Hermes on some level wants to believe, and he wants to be proven wrong. When he sends the Meteia off in search of answers, he tells you that he expects to share good news with you. And even when you find him at the end of his journey, a broken husk of his former self ('The man I was would weep for what I have become.') he still can hardly believe that the nihilistic answer he receives ('After all these years, was this the answer that I was hoping for?') One of the things that makes his character so poignant is how ill suited he is to play the villain. The Hermes that we meet in Elpis is a bumbling nerd, altogether too soft-hearted for his own good. We find him dangling upside-down off a tree when he tries to rescue his lost ambystoma. In each scenario that we encounter on Elpis, he's usually not the one to solve the problem, but he is usually able to pinpoint what the moral stakes are. And it's primarily through his growing sense of alienation and frustration that we get the sense of the wrongness of this place. And yet - there is no adequate way to voice his dissent. It's always beautiful.

So fixated are we upon the duty that we do not pause to question the method. Pain and suffering... confusion and despair writ plain in the eyes of those poor creatures. Yet no one sees. We turn a blind eye and carry on in blissful ignorance. Naught amiss, and always - always the blossoms shine pure and white. A contradiction so blatant I could scream. Want to scream. How can you all accept this... aberration!? Then I wonder... am I the aberration for thinking thus? And I am filled with dread...

Every utopian society that the Meteia encountered had one thing in common; the sense that their way of doing things and their approach to living was the best. They're beautiful and yet uncomfortable at the same time. Amaurot was no different from the rest. Many of the ones we see very deliberately are reflections of and condemnations on our own society. The Dead Ends in particular fires off some absolutely savage shots with its 'Freedom Fighters' and 'Peacekeepers', culminating in the final standing soldier by the exit cheering 'I did it! I killed them all! <long pause> I... killed them all...' It's fine to see things in their respective ideologies that are admirable. But I think that they're best admired from a distance.

[Lersayil]

'Let us settle this with a determination. In my authority as chief overseer of Elpis, I will make a judgement on man's fitness to exist. If he can learn to value all life and retain his will to live, even should his end be justified, he will surely find a way to avert his demise. If not, he will perish from the star.'

That is what he said. But was the logic sound behind it? His test did not at all test the Ancients values of life. If anything, the Ancient almost overcame his blind test by a method he would've deemed a failure via Zodiark.

He had a nihilistic breakdown compounded by his existing depression. Instead of making the rest of his race face the same existential crisis (from which they actually could've learned something constructive), he pushed a much worse "test" upon them. One where the correct answer was supposed to be unflinching, baseless and blind hope in the face of planetary annihilation that stemmed from their own powers by utterly unknown means. That is an unreasonable expectation to a imperfect race, one the Sundered didn't live up to either.

As for the rest, I understand the message the writers are trying to push, I just don't agree with it, and posit that even within the confines of the story their argument isn't perfect.

[Theodric]

As for the rest, I understand the message the writers are trying to push, I just don't agree with it, and posit that even within the confines of the story their argument isn't perfect.

To be fair, I'm not even convinced that they're trying to push a specific message. They've said as much in the past that they're entertainers rather than philosophers. They've also often highlighted that many of the major conflicts within the story can be attributed as a 'matter of perspective' rather than 'good' and 'evil'.

[Lersayil]

To be fair, I'm not even convinced that they're trying to push a specific message. They've said as much in the past that they're entertainers rather than philosophers. They've also often highlighted that many of the major conflicts within the story can be attributed as a 'matter of perspective' rather than 'good' and 'evil'.

Maybe, but I do feel like they have at least an overarching vague message usually. Hope, peace, compromise, the value of knowledge, hear, feel, think etc. Stuff I can usually get behind.

This time around it kinda felt more specific and hamfisted, but it might just be my imagination or personal bias on the subjects.

wider society however seems to submit ideas based mostly on what trends are in vogue at the moment. It's mentioned at one point that they keep getting weirder and weirder shark based concepts to test, not because of any great need for new sharks, but because shark concepts are currently the in thing among Amaurotians.

It's funny to think that somewhere out there, there was probably an Ancient showing off to her friends: *Holds up concept* 'I made a shark but stuck wings on its head, XD I'm so random lol'

As long as those concepts are subjected to the same criteria as the more practical concepts, I think this is actually a great thing on their part. It would mean that the creation process is open to everyone, but still subjected to extensive testing and regulation. Who knows, the public might come up with something revolutionary just by accident!

[Jandor]

As long as those concepts are subjected to the same criteria as the more practical concepts, I think this is actually a great thing on their part. It would mean that the creation process is open to everyone, but still subjected to extensive testing and regulation. Who knows, the public might come up with something revolutionary just by accident!

I have no issue with killing animals, I eat meat, I wear leather, and I've often idly considered going hunting. I don't even take issue with animal testing in theory, so long as it is serves a valid purpose.

Whipping up frankenstein style creations for fun and fashion, only to wipe them out later when they prove useless is a bit much though, even by my fairly cold-blooded standards.

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Edit: To be fair to the ancients though, I don't really recall anything definitive on just how many concepts submitted actually get tested. They might work through all of them, just to see what happens, or they might extensively evaluate them before creating them, so as to not waste time on obvious dead-ends.

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Edit 2: Failed creations in Elpis be all like 'Tell us why, given Life, we are meant to die, helpless in our cries?'

[Lersayil]

I have no issue with killing animals, I eat meat, I wear leather, and I've often idly considered going hunting. I don't even take issue with animal testing in theory, so long as it is serves a valid purpose.

Whipping up frankenstein style creations for fun and fashion, only to wipe them out later when they prove useless is a bit much though, even by my fairly cold-blooded standards.

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Edit: To be fair to the ancients though, I don't really recall anything definitive on just how many concepts submitted actually get tested. They might work through all of them, just to see what happens, or they might extensively evaluate them before creating them, so as to not waste time on obvious dead-ends.

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Edit 2: Failed creations in Elpis be all like 'Tell us why, given Life, we are meant to die, helpless in our cries?'

This is going entirely into speculation on my part, but its stated that an Ancient needed a measure of understanding of the thing they created by their magic. I wouldn't consider it entirely outlandish to presume that the more eccentric / useless concepts didn't even make it to the creation phase and were discarded before giving them form to test. At least in Elpis I don't recall seeing anything completely ridiculous that clearly served only as a fad.

[Alleo]

This is going entirely into speculation on my part, but its stated that an Ancient needed a measure of understanding of the thing they created by their magic. I wouldn't consider it entirely outlandish to presume that the more eccentric / useless concepts didn't even make it to the creation phase and were discarded before giving them form to test. At least in Elpis I don't recall seeing anything completely ridiculous that clearly served only as a fad.

Well we have that one fate chain where one Ancient basically first summoned are horde of those ugly things from that one dungeon and being like oops that was not how I thought they would be, please take care of them only to bascially do the same thing again just a few seconds afterwards, producing a cyclop which we have to dispose. Not saying that everyone was like that. Some other quests clearly show that they do like their concept even though they still go around and change them up greatly (Behemoth).

The worst is probably for those that land in Pandemonium. Stuck in that depressing place to be studied and tested.