Paladin weakest Tank now

[Satarn]

First of all, someone has to be last.

I hate to break it to you, but Paladin is a tank, not a dps. Your primary job isn't to worry about how much damage you can put out, but holding threat and not dying.

Let the dps focus on dps.

I've never understood the mentality of feeling like you need to pump out as much dps as you can on a job that isn't meant to pump out much dps.

Tanks are tanks, and you'll never be a dps. If your ego absolutely NEEDS that feeling of high numbers to be happy with your gameplay; play a dps.

I mean, I'm pretty sure that if there was a DPS job that happened to be significantly more squishy in comparison to all other ones, to the point where healers/tanks had to spend extra mitigation on them just so they could survive raidwides everyone else passes at minimal ilvl, then that would also be seen as an issue. Would you also dismiss concerns about such situation because "you're a dps, if you want to be tough, play a tank"?

[Saimeren]

I mean, I'm pretty sure that if there was a DPS job that happened to be significantly more squishy in comparison to all other ones, to the point where healers/tanks had to spend extra mitigation on them just so they could survive raidwides everyone else passes at minimal ilvl, then that would also be seen as an issue. Would you also dismiss concerns about such situation because "you're a dps, if you want to be tough, play a tank"?

Kind of, yeah. Glass cannons are a thing.

[Satarn]

Kind of, yeah. Glass cannons are a thing.

Do you have a "glass cannon" - in this game - which regularly requires extra, single target shielding and is also the only job in its category that has this quality? No and I assure you if that was the case, people would be vocal about it and the devs would fix it within a single patch.

[Saimeren]

Do you have a "glass cannon" - in this game - which regularly requires extra, single target shielding and is also the only job in its category that has this quality? No and I assure you if that was the case, people would be vocal about it and the devs would fix it within a single patch.

Black Mage and Samurai have minimal self sustain. In return they deal generally higher damage to compensate.

If people are really willing to complain about playing a glass cannon, then why not just homogenize every single job? Make everything a 1,2,3 with a shield, heal and dash.

No uniqueness, every ability deals the same damage, and nobody's class has any unique identity from one another.

The point of being a glass cannon is the tradeoff of higher damage vs lower sustain.

Likewise the point of being a tank is the tradeoff of having higher sustain and lower damage.

Paladin has less damage because they have "arguably" the best sustain. (Warrior's new buffs put them in contention)

If your main argument is; "thing is different from other thing and I don't like"; then maybe you shouldn't be playing a game that offers a diverse set of classes and roles.

The fact that there are differences is what makes each job unique and more fun to play.

[Satarn]

Black Mage and Samurai have minimal self sustain. In return they deal generally higher damage to compensate.

Eeee, who are you responding to? Because you seem to have went on some tangent about self-sustain when I never said anything about self sustain. I asked about a DPS job which consistently dies to raidwides unless given more external mitigation than any other DPS.

Funnily enough, even when looking at "self-sustain", SAM's Third Eye at 15 sec cd, is still arguably better in the melee category than NIN's Shade Shift at whooping two minutes and don't even get me started on DRG, because I'm going to end up in stitches. Not to mention SAM's higher(and purely physical) pDPS output, means they get better returns from Bloodbath. Of course these "glass-cannons" bring way less damage than SAM, be it in aDPS or rDPS category. Oh and I guess RPR would like to have a word with you, lol.

Man, even that straw man you've made is kicking your butt.

Btw nobody ever asked for PLD to do DPS-level damage, only one closer to that of the other tanks.

[Undeadfire]

Just cleared P4S today as Pld, friendly advice, don't Paladin unless you know how to play it.

Drk/Gnb/War are simply better.

[Weetzlo]

I mean, I'm pretty sure that if there was a DPS job that happened to be significantly more squishy in comparison to all other ones, to the point where healers/tanks had to spend extra mitigation on them just so they could survive raidwides everyone else passes at minimal ilvl, then that would also be seen as an issue. Would you also dismiss concerns about such situation because "you're a dps, if you want to be tough, play a tank"?

'This tank jobs does its tanking job really well and also does enough damage to clear content consistently, and handles forced melee downtime much more comfortably than the other tanks is as bad as if there was a job that just died like every minute without a babysitter.'
I'm sorry what?

[Satarn]

'This tank jobs does its tanking job really well and also does enough damage to clear content consistently, and handles forced melee downtime much more comfortably than the other tanks is as bad as if there was a job that just died like every minute without a babysitter.'
I'm sorry what?

We've only just got the "content" this week and PLD sits at 8% clear rate for the full tier compared to 24, 29 and 39% of other tanks. Dunno if I'd exactly call that "consistent".

Obviously you can clear with a PLD - just like you could clear with that imaginary glass cannon that dies to raidwides without an extra shield - you'd just need somebody else to pick up the slack, be it via shielding or doing more dps.

It might be an issue however, when the damage difference is big enough that at min ilvl people may hit enrages which they would not see if only they switched their tank - which it seems might've indeed been a concern, given how many parties first-killed without one, despite the fact that the job has great prog tools and has been consistently very popular gameplay-wise since 4.0.

It just seems pretty shitty to dismiss this with "lol, if you wanna do damage, play a DPS". Like, the entire point of the example with raidwides was that just because something isn't a part of the job's primary role, doesn't mean it can't be a balance issue for them, how difficult is that to understand?

[Undeadfire]

Paladin can clear the new Savage raid, I myself wouldn't recommend it without it's DPS buffs, it's DPS is absolutely poor. As the approach more gear, GNB/DRK are pulling further ahead because of burst outputs, Paladin has essentially none than DOT boosters, GNB/DRK are climbing above to a 500-600 DPS difference. If you think Paladin has an extra raid support plus new ability adjustments, and makes it fine, I am sorry you're 100% wrong.

Beating P4S is a train wreck for it, once the job de-syncs the difference falls further between GNB/DRK, the Atonement/Blades barely have enough power to warrant it's place and extra raid abilities will not do much for Healers, when TBN/HOC can do the same job and output super high levels of DPS, War has extreme healing, and yet it doesn't fall too behind DRK/GNB. You're only hurting the team if you choose PLD the current way it is, Ast/Sch/Sge are crazy strong healers, PLDs abilities wouldn't make a dang difference.

[Weetzlo]

We've only just got the "content" this week and PLD sits at 8% clear rate for the full tier compared to 24, 29 and 39% of other tanks. Dunno if I'd exactly call that "consistent".

Obviously you can clear with a PLD - just like you could clear with that imaginary glass cannon that dies to raidwides without an extra shield - you'd just need somebody else to pick up the slack, be it via shielding or doing more dps.

It might be an issue however, when the damage difference is big enough that at min ilvl people may hit enrages which they would not see if only they switched their tank - which it seems might've indeed been a concern, given how many parties first-killed without one, despite the fact that the job has great prog tools and has been consistently very popular gameplay-wise since 4.0.

It just seems pretty shitty to dismiss this with "lol, if you wanna do damage, play a DPS". Like, the entire point of the example with raidwides was that just because something isn't a part of the job's primary role, doesn't mean it can't be a balance issue for them, how difficult is that to understand?

Because if you look at P4S part 2, the best paladin is doing 97.5% of the damage the best warrior does. The gap grows smaller in fights like P3S where more of the PLD's strengths come through and actually in P1S PLD beat WAR. Saying it's sandbagging a team to the extent you are is just dishonest. I can't speak to the clear rates with real certainty but I do suspect a couple things. 1), PLD being the poster boy means more people playing it and therefore more fails with it. 2) The type of people motivated/dedicated enough to be getting week 1 clears generally believe in the blue DPS ideal so they bring GNB and DRK no matter what and would even if the difference was 0.0001% more damage.