So you're telling me..

[Ransu]

Line up you burst with ours then. You fail to understand that Reaper's raid buff functions selfishly. It is not like the others.

Most raid buffs can function selfishly....doesn't change the fact that they are raid buffs and benefit the raid. SAM does not bring any raid buffs or anything that benefits the raid outside of straight DPS. If MNK and RPR can compete with them for the top DPS spot then what's the point of SAM? Back when SAM was introduced it had the highest potency across the board and weas stated by the developers that they intentionally designed SAM to always be the top DPS BECAUSE its a selfish DPS job that brings zero utility.

[IruruCece]

Most raid buffs can function selfishly....doesn't change the fact that they are raid buffs and benefit the raid. SAM does not bring any raid buffs or anything that benefits the raid outside of straight DPS. If MNK and RPR can compete with them for the top DPS spot then what's the point of SAM? Back when SAM was introduced it had the highest potency across the board and weas stated by the developers that they intentionally designed SAM to always be the top DPS BECAUSE its a selfish DPS job that brings zero utility.

Hilariously enough, and I discussed this very briefly with Kazimere over Discord, this is exactly the problem that Monk faced exiting Heavensward: no raid buffs (it did have the blunt debuff at one point... but how many jobs did that benefit?), entirely a selfish DPS that was being left behind due to a stacking buff meta that overrode whatever personal contributions to a raid that even the best Monk players could muster. With Stormblood came some form of utility (for limited comps), as well as the introduction of a new selfish DPS job to eat its lunch. Which, ultimately, Samurai did in both terms of design and player population, and still is now.

https://luckybancho.ldblog.jp/archives/56364034.html (credit to xou_ from Twintania for linking this in a Ninja thread.)

SE already has an extremely poor record of shifting selfish DPS into being more supportive, it's called Monk. If the "solution" that has been peddled here (give Samurai a raid utility or two beyond just straight up damage) does get implemented, I have zero faith in SE's ability to integrate that into a job that hasn't had such a utility for 90 levels and three expansions without completely screwing it up, because they couldn't do it right for Monk that existed without such things for ARR and HW without ultimately compromising its identity and gameplay.

As I said to Kazimere, I think it's totally acceptable for there to be purely selfish DPS in the game, DPS that provide no 'utility' to a raid beyond their damage. The 'fix' for them isn't to give them utilities, it's to make their damage THE thing that people bring them for. It has to be decisively such, because if not, the job will get left behind. Again, we have Monk as the example for what happens to a selfish DPS when that isn't the case, and we also have everything that's happened to it from Stormblood on as an example of why SE shouldn't be trusted in that regard.

[Kazimere]

Hilariously enough, and I discussed this very briefly with Kazimere over Discord, this is exactly the problem that Monk faced exiting Heavensward: no raid buffs (it did have the blunt debuff at one point... but how many jobs did that benefit?), entirely a selfish DPS that was being left behind due to a stacking buff meta that overrode whatever personal contributions to a raid that even the best Monk players could muster. With Stormblood came some form of utility (for limited comps), as well as the introduction of a new selfish DPS job to eat its lunch. Which, ultimately, Samurai did in both terms of design and player population, and still is now.

https://luckybancho.ldblog.jp/archives/56364034.html (credit to xou_ from Twintania for linking this in a Ninja thread.)

SE already has an extremely poor record of shifting selfish DPS into being more supportive, it's called Monk. If the "solution" that has been peddled here (give Samurai a raid utility or two beyond just straight up damage) does get implemented, I have zero faith in SE's ability to integrate that into a job that hasn't had such a utility for 90 levels and three expansions without completely screwing it up, because they couldn't do it right for Monk that existed without such things for ARR and HW without ultimately compromising its identity and gameplay.

As I said to Kazimere, I think it's totally acceptable for there to be purely selfish DPS in the game, DPS that provide no 'utility' to a raid beyond their damage. The 'fix' for them isn't to give them utilities, it's to make their damage THE thing that people bring them for. It has to be decisively such, because if not, the job will get left behind. Again, we have Monk as the example for what happens to a selfish DPS when that isn't the case, and we also have everything that's happened to it from Stormblood on as an example of why SE shouldn't be trusted in that regard.

People will bring them though. Those who understand anyway. Problem is, people look at what fflogs uses for rankings (rDPS) without understanding the other brackets.

If anything Sam could bump up another percent in the aDPS department, giving it a solid 2-3% lead over reaper and monk. Then, boost DRG and NIN up a bit more if their recent tinkering didn't do the trick. That would even them all out in the rDPS department better. You're going to have a top and a bottom though. It's just the way it is. However, that top should never be Sam in the rDPS department. At best, it should be third.

[V_UZI]

People will bring them though. Those who understand anyway. Problem is, people look at what fflogs uses for rankings (rDPS) without understanding the other brackets.

If anything Sam could bump up another percent in the aDPS department, giving it a solid 2-3% lead over reaper and monk. Then, boost DRG and NIN up a bit more if their recent tinkering didn't do the trick. That would even them all out in the rDPS department better. You're going to have a top and a bottom though. It's just the way it is. However, that top should never be Sam in the rDPS department. At best, it should be third.

The problem is RPR actually doing about the same aDPS as SAM, however it doing even more rDPS, so this is pretty unbalance right now. If SAM do more aDPS than RPR but have a lower rDPS then I think people wouldn't complain about this.

[Kazimere]

The problem is RPR actually doing about the same aDPS as SAM, however it doing even more rDPS, so this is pretty unbalance right now. If SAM do more aDPS than RPR but have a lower rDPS then I think people wouldn't complain about this.

You say "even more" like it's being completely outclassed in the rDPS bracket. It's not. It's 2-3%. However, it needs to be closer to 1-2% to be fair. Yes, this is due to it not being high enough in aDPS atm. It's about 1% above reaper and monk right now, and it probably needs to go up to 2-3% above them in aDPS to make the rDPS even out more.

Trust me. I play samurai as well, and I enjoy it. I don't want it being completely blown out of the water. I just don't think it deserves to top rDPS.

[Ransu]

People will bring them though. Those who understand anyway. Problem is, people look at what fflogs uses for rankings (rDPS) without understanding the other brackets..

You clearly were not around during ARR where pretty much every raid group was mandatory double bard and once ninja was released it was double bard and ninja. The 4th DPS was usually DRG because blunt debuff from monk wasn't all that useful.

[Kazimere]

You clearly were not around during ARR where pretty much every raid group was mandatory double bard and once ninja was released it was double bard and ninja. The 4th DPS was usually DRG because blunt debuff from monk wasn't all that useful.

I was around, actually. I remember those days well. Bard was fine, yet people were saying it was weak, so the subsequent buff completely broke it. No one is saying Reaper is under performing, and the only people claiming Samurai are under-performing are those who are angry they aren't dominating anymore. In StB, Samurai pretty much had a dedicated spot.

Drg was brought predominately because of the piercing down for bard. Warrior was a shoe in for the slashing debuff, as well as its dps. Ninja, well cause of TA. Monk had no buffs to offer the raid, and it didn't jive well with comps. When played well, it was the highest dps though, and everyone knew it.

[Kazimere]

Most raid buffs can function selfishly....doesn't change the fact that they are raid buffs and benefit the raid. SAM does not bring any raid buffs or anything that benefits the raid outside of straight DPS. If MNK and RPR can compete with them for the top DPS spot then what's the point of SAM? Back when SAM was introduced it had the highest potency across the board and weas stated by the developers that they intentionally designed SAM to always be the top DPS BECAUSE its a selfish DPS job that brings zero utility.

You do understand that the DPS that is boosted on the Sam from raid buffs is given to the job that is giving the buff, right? Like I said, if the Sam is topping rDPS as well, it is because it is so powerful in the aDPS department that its boosted DPS is still overshadowing the buffer, who is the one being given the numbers from the boost. You talk of balance, yet completely overlook how busted that is. This is essentially why Sam was a lock for speed runs. They were so powerful that they didn't need buffs.

Sam is 2-3% behind RPR and MNK, AO last week. Boost DRG and NIN to be above Sam in rDPS, as well, and all will be well.