Dear WoW refugees and returning players

[DerpyWhiskers]

One issue with the Trust system is if you die, the healer can't rez you and there's no players to help with advice and mechs. You could be there in the 90+ dungeon for hours and hours and hours resetting and still never get it.

I mean I played through all previous content, been playing about 9 months, (yeah the 2014 Vets can laugh, I was over in ESO since 2014), and couldn't quite get the mechs in a couple of the 90+ dungeons with the Trusts. Queued up with a pug DF group and still died a bit but had some nice players help out with tips and advice. Got through em no prob then and was able to understand the mechs much better with live guidance.

The one sorta relevant point which was made in another thread, regardless of refugee or noob status, if a player hasn't sincerely done the previous dungeons/trials and seen how mechanics build and operate, they're going to seriously struggle in current dungeons.

Still, I'm proof you can have done the content, be dedicated and genuinely trying, and still be hot dying garbage in new dungeons lol. *shrug* Idk about anyone else but it takes me at least 5 runs in a dungeon to really grasp most or all of the mechs. If there's some elite players amongst us that can magically get everything their first time or by just watching a video once, I do commend and congratulate their skill. <3

[Kolaina]

Snip

No. Not all the new players have to be bad for the statement to hold true. I guess you don’t understand “average”. Average would suggest a medium. Idk where you pulled ffxiv vet from, as if anyone who questions the lack of ability shown by the current community needs to be a vet. They only need be competent, and observant.

Unskilled, uneducated, they can go hand in hand. Would an ignorant player not be unskilled? Now you’re arguing semantics, seemingly for the sake of arguing.

Just because someone calls out the coddling of players doesn’t mean they want to “yell” at players who may be learning or not grasping something. But that’s the problem with the “they are doing fine” community. You assume any criticism is an attack instead of taking it as advice or clarification, or anything at face value.

I’ve been playing for a long time too. I can safely say, I’ve never seen a community this happy to let people stay on the bottom rung. To not only excuse it, but defend it without trying to be of actual help.

Again you go on about yelling and shaming. Not all criticism is yelling and shaming. Sometimes it’s blunt, but not everything has to be prettied up. In fact, I find the meaning and purpose get lost in translation when you inflate it with everything else. But you do you. Assume everyone’s just mad. Don’t allow advice to get passed along just because it’s not sugar coated, even if it’s not an attack.

[Krotoan]

No. Not all the new players have to be bad for the statement to hold true. I guess you don’t understand “average”. Average would suggest a medium. Idk where you pulled ffxiv vet from, as if anyone who questions the lack of ability shown by the current community needs to be a vet. They only need be competent, and observant.

The proposal is that somehow there are more bad people than there used to be, therefore dragging the average down. The reality is that there are just more people, increasing the chance you'll get "bad" players. This doesn't mean there are PROPORTIONATELY MORE bad players, just that there are more bad players metrically. However since we're talking about averages and there are likely proportionately more good players as well, the average skill level isn't going down.

Unskilled, uneducated, they can go hand in hand. Would an ignorant player not be unskilled? Now you’re arguing semantics, seemingly for the sake of arguing.

Nope. An unskilled would be a player who no matter the knowledge would never be able to play at a certain level. An uneducated person would quickly ramp up to their skill level as soon as they had the knowledge. That's the difference in those terms as I'm using them.

Just because someone calls out the coddling of players doesn’t mean they want to “yell” at players who may be learning or not grasping something. But that’s the problem with the “they are doing fine” community. You assume any criticism is an attack instead of taking it as advice or clarification, or anything at face value.

It doesn't necessarily follow, but it's been my experience that immediately after someone calls out "coddling" players they start to talk about how people attack them for criticizing those players in a harsh manner and/or immediately start to level unnecessarily rude or derogatory criticism demonstrating my point that they don't actually have a problem with other players needing to learn, but being mad they cannot denigrate or shame people into learning.

I’ve been playing for a long time too. I can safely say, I’ve never seen a community this happy to let people stay on the bottom rung. To not only excuse it, but defend it without trying to be of actual help.

I hear this a lot, but aside from that one forum troll and his "wife" I've never heard someone take the position that people should happily carry dead weight.

Again you go on about yelling and shaming. Not all criticism is yelling and shaming. Sometimes it’s blunt, but not everything has to be prettied up. In fact, I find the meaning and purpose get lost in translation when you inflate it with everything else. But you do you. Assume everyone’s just mad. Don’t allow advice to get passed along just because it’s not sugar coated, even if it’s not an attack.

I don't assume people are mad, I notice that the people who GET mad are the ones teaching in said "Blunt" or "matter of fact" methods. You don't need to sugar coat things, but you should probably use tact when dealing with unknown randoms. If you think bare minimum tact is unnecessary "inflation" then you're probably exactly who I am talking about.

[AlyaNimfa]

I like doing the trust thing since I get a better conversation out of them than playing with real people.

[Imora]

Heaven forfend people learn things and ruin your optimal DF runs for the day right?

If there's no new player notification I expect people to know what an aoe marker is and not stand in it.

[Krotoan]

If there's no new player notification I expect people to know what an aoe marker is and not stand in it.

I can agree with that. However if someone did I probably would drop a quick "Careful of the orange telegraphs" rather than go on a tirade.

[Imora]

I can agree with that. However if someone did I probably would drop a quick "Careful of the orange telegraphs" rather than go on a tirade.

I don't go on a tirade, I just roll my eyes and complain in another channel about it if it's bad enough. I tend to not say anything unless they say something first, because asking someone to watch what they stand in tends to get people pissed off. For some reason. -_-

I tend to get the most... bad people in my groups, so I do roulettes with a group. And not just bad in performance, bad in attitude either in addition, or in replacement. It's not all the time, but I get them often enough that I don't like running content with randos.

[Kolaina]

snip

You are the one who argued on the basis that the claim is all new players are bad, despite no one saying that. You also said that its in your own personal experience that people become unnecessarily rude while in the same post, claiming you do not assume. Which is it? You make a lot of opposing statements. I’m going to bed while you sort out what your saying, instead of conflicting things you’ve previously said when it suits your agenda. Night

[Krotoan]

I don't go on a tirade, I just roll my eyes and complain in another channel about it if it's bad enough. I tend to not say anything unless they say something first, because asking someone to watch what they stand in tends to get people pissed off. For some reason. -_-

I tend to get the most... bad people in my groups, so I do roulettes with a group. And not just bad in performance, bad in attitude either in addition, or in replacement. It's not all the time, but I get them often enough that I don't like running content with randos.

All of which is fair. And hopefully you also don't come onto the forums and demand people learn everything before getting in an instance. I won't ever go so far as to say everyone is receptive and wonderful. There's cruddy people in this game just like any other and the influx of players has made it more common to encounter them just through sheer numbers.

You are the one who argued on the basis that the claim is all new players are bad, despite no one saying that.

not said directly but this example given basically says a huge increase in players without increasing the "good" players. By extrapolation that means ONLY increasing the bad players:

If you have 50 people playing and 25 are good, then your average of good players is going to be increasingly different than if you have 500 players and 25 are good.

You also said that its in your own personal experience that people become unnecessarily rude while in the same post, claiming you do not assume.
Which is it? You make a lot of opposing statements. I’m going to bed while you sort out what your saying, instead of conflicting things you’ve previously said when it suits your agenda. Night

I said :

but it's been my experience that immediately after someone calls out "coddling" players they start to talk about how people attack them for criticizing those players in a harsh manner and/or immediately start to level unnecessarily rude or derogatory criticism demonstrating my point that they don't actually have a problem with other players needing to learn, but being mad they cannot denigrate or shame people into learning.

in response to:

Just because someone calls out the coddling of players doesn’t mean they want to “yell” at players who may be learning or not grasping something. But that’s the problem with the “they are doing fine” community. You assume any criticism is an attack instead of taking it as advice or clarification, or anything at face value.

and then:

I don't assume people are mad, I notice that the people who GET mad are the ones teaching in said "Blunt" or "matter of fact" methods. You don't need to sugar coat things, but you should probably use tact when dealing with unknown randoms. If you think bare minimum tact is unnecessary "inflation" then you're probably exactly who I am talking about.

in response to :

Again you go on about yelling and shaming. Not all criticism is yelling and shaming. Sometimes it’s blunt, but not everything has to be prettied up. In fact, I find the meaning and purpose get lost in translation when you inflate it with everything else. But you do you. Assume everyone’s just mad. Don’t allow advice to get passed along just because it’s not sugar coated, even if it’s not an attack.

The first says it reinforces the perception that they're mad they can't use their preferred derogatory tactics since they express frustration through FURTHER denigration.

The 2nd says I don't assume EVERYONE is just mad I observe the people who say things in "unsugared" ways are the ones who are quickest to GET PERCEPTIBLY MAD.


I don't see how you can think one relates to the other. Seeing people get mad, does not mean I assumed anything. None of that is opposing.

[Sylve]

Dear New FFXIV Players:

Even though you pay your subscription fees, I deem my existence to be superior to yours and request that you play the game the way I say.

Signed,
FFXIV Elitist

/s

WHile you are being sarcastic, the "You dont pay my sub" defense is more common than you think.

Just last night i did my Expert Roulette as Sage and landed in the 90 MSQ dungeon. 6 minute elapse, standing at the first boss (A very common occurence).
All 3 members of the party failed mechanics over and over, which caused me no small amount of stress keeping them alive.
On the second boss, the Reaper was offered a tip on upcoming mechanics of the boss to watch out for and was told "Chill i wanna do this totally blind"
And proceeded to mess up mechanic after mechanic.

On the final boss, he managed to get Doomed 3 times, drawing ALL of my resources to keep him alive while the other 2 continued to fail mechanics, leading to all 3 of them being dead at one point.
The Reaper demanding to do a blind run directly led to the Tank's death, which in turn led to the other DPS being killed by the boss when the Tank went down.

To that Reaper and ALL others who proclaim "You dont pay my sub"
This is a god damn team game. If you're unwilling to work as a team, don't force your poor decisions onto people who have to deal with the mess you create due to your inability to play nicely with a group.

Trust is perfect for doing blind runs where available. Dont make other people miserable for your own selfish reasons.

One issue with the Trust system is if you die, the healer can't rez you and there's no players to help with advice and mechs. You could be there in the 90+ dungeon for hours and hours and hours resetting and still never get it.

Trust NPCs in dungeons execute all mechanics properly outside of some scripted "accidents" due to AI personality quirks.
You can quite literally just follow the NPCs around for the whole fight and win even without understanding the reason why the NPCs are doing what they're doing.
The NPCs literally guide you through the mechanics. There is no reason for someone to fail endlessly in a Trust run outside of a sheer refusal to take notice of their surroundings.