Skills should scale down in lower content NOT be greyed out.

[Mikey_R]

So what? Even if it's the same job they can get to see what they'll have at higher levels...

Obviously there would still be a power discrepancy, mostly related to the sheer number of ogcds a level capped job has... But they could solve this as having high level players some kind of "heroic morale" aura that affects lower level players' damage %, seeking to equalize damage a bit.

So you want to power up the low level player and just make the problem even worse? You have to remember, this is a learning environment for low level players who might not have played an MMO before. By making everything die before they can learn, you just make them a worse player in the long run. They need time to be taught, need time to practice and that is what can currently happen.

[Derio]

So you would want to do more skill for the same amout of damage you would do for just 2 moves.

[Artemiz]

This works in all normal dungeons(wow's leveling dungeons) but is broken into brackets. From lvl15-49 you can do any of the base dungeons or the dungeons from any of the old expacs(they have separate queues though) and it will scale like I said. Once you hit 50 you will be put up to the current expac and the dungeons go from 50-60(current WoW max). That also means max level players that don't have the ilvl to do heroics that queue for normals to bump ilvl will be put with people still leveling(but only the 50-60 tier). Gear drops also scale so if a lvl 45 and a lvl 20 both get a drop it will be at their personal lvl, but WoW uses a personal loot system instead of need/greed roll for these now so that wouldn't work in FF atm.

That is a much better system than I thought they had so I'm glad WoW has come up with a solution that works for their game and players. Talking hypothetically though, even if they did manage to solve potency in a way everyone was happy with what people really seem to be asking for is all their abilities more so than normal damage numbers. I just can't see how people can have all their abilities and the game still maintain balance and a healthy experience for level appropriate players.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I swear to the Twelve, I will start to Math at you all if I have to in order to prove why this is not a simple problem to solve without significantly reworking FFXIV's combat system (to the point it will no longer be FFXIV's combat system). And if I do so, it will be in typical Packetdancer manner: in sufficient depth that I will need to break it into multiple posts or else link a Google Doc.

Consider that a promise and/or threat as suits your personal preferences. :P

A threat or not, I am very interested to snack on your google doc link and its content.

Grace us with thy math!

So you would want to do more skill for the same amout of damage you would do for just 2 moves.

Ngl, the next thing that will surfaces is "Omg this is unfair why do I need to work 2-5 times harder just to achieve same damage, I'm not gonna do stuff on low lv dungeons anymore!"

[Raikai]

So you want to power up the low level player and just make the problem even worse? You have to remember, this is a learning environment for low level players who might not have played an MMO before. By making everything die before they can learn, you just make them a worse player in the long run. They need time to be taught, need time to practice and that is what can currently happen.

It's also an environment for seasoned players that are levelling other jobs or running roulettes. By not making those attractive for veterans, it actually hurts new/low level players without a lot of people going through those to be teamed up with.

If things dying too fast is the problem, just have this "veteran buff" scale something on the enemies too. Together with that, they also could provide a new filter to disable this power scaling feature when you queue and team you up with other people either having this or being naturally low level, just like they made one to have the leveling roulette match your current level.

[Miles064]

While it could be a good solution for WoW where most of the damage is from the GCD, a significant portion of damage in FFXIV comes from oGCDs, which means you can get more damage out in the same time frame. You also have the issue again of healing kits and mitigation kits, how does that work? How would it work if you were a high level healer healing a low level tank and vice versa. You cannot just make it a % heal, as at low levels, Cure and equivalents heal a substantial amount of HP whereas at high levels, it heals barely anything relative to a tanks max HP. For some numbers my PLD in Sastasha has 590 HP and my WHM cures for around 210, which is about 35% heal, at level 90 my PLD has 70216 HP and WHM cures for around 8500 bearing in mind this is also an increased potency (450 > 500) which is about a 12% heal. Because potency is just a multiplier, we can easily work out the healing of Cure 2, which is about 340 HP, or ~57%, at 90 it is around 13500 which is ~20%. So, whose perspective are you going to have the HP values restored by?

Everyone wants to focus on damage, but it has been said multiple times it is not just the damage, it is the mitigating and healing potential as well which can throw everything out of whack. That 10 seconds of invincibility isn't that much in endgame fights where bosses can take 2-3 minutes to kill, but when they die in about 60 seconds, that 10 seconds is quite a significant portion of the fight.

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this to you already in this thread. I don't heal much while lvling in that game so I dont know the exact numbers behind it. When I was higher than the tank I had a more fleshed out kit but still couldn't heal them up in 2 heals or anything. When I was lower than the tank my heals seemed to have strong power behind them to make up for me not having all of my kit. As far as tank cds and such go, so what? Higher tanks having invulns just makes it easier for the low lvl healers. These dungeons are not balanced around having an invuln(none are that I know of) so it would just be something extra they can use.

Blood Death Knight gets aoe, taunt, and def cd gimmick(death strike) before they can even step foot in a dungeon. They don't get Icebound Fortitude till lvl 38(20% wall cd) according to wowpedia and gain more def and attack skills from leveling and talents as they get higher. The tank cds in this game (stuff like rampart) come in early as well while getting stronger stuff later. Every tank and healer in this game can do the at lvl stuff with no issues and simply get better stuff as they get higher.

Once again I am not stating FF need to copy how wow did it 1:1. Just that it is possible. It isnt like you really need TBN in copperbell but having it would sure be nice.

[Seraphor]

I can imagine some scenario :
1. just keep all skill and damage potencies but scale them based on the dungeon ilv,
this scenario would make the high level melting the mobs as soon as they spawn,
and make the sprout (or anyone new to their job/role) unable to learn anything,
making them feeling like they are a deadweight in the party
bad to the new player, don't want to add more deadweight feeling in the game, irl stuff already provided that enough
remember when we still have skippable cutscene on msq roulettes,
we just straight up leaving the sprouts to clear the dungeon without even waiting them because it is too slow,
now imagine if there are obvious "deadweight party member" on our levelling roulette,
1/4 sprout ? vote dismiss ?
3/4 sprout ? take penalty and leave dungeon ?

2. further scaling the synced skill and potencies to far below dungeon ilv so the overall dps will be on par with the newer player,
that would make the higher level have to do the perfect rotation to just keep up with the '5 buttons skill sprout',
higher effort to do just on par with the sprout,
this just punishing to the higher level, might causing them to stop helping newer player because "too much hassle"

Repeated for posterity.
Catch 22, both scenarios will piss a ton of people off.

This is not a good idea.

The best solution is to make more skills available at lower levels.
Every tank/dps should have an AoE, and at least 3 single target skills (whether thats a 1-2-3 combo, or 2 GCDs and an oGCD, or a GCD a DoT and an oGCD, whatever) by level 15.
Every job should have their job gauge and a substantial rotation by level 50.

[Seraphor]

It's also an environment for seasoned players that are levelling other jobs or running roulettes. By not making those attractive for veterans, it actually hurts new/low level players without a lot of people going through those to be teamed up with.

Absoluno one is being hurt under the current systemn there is no shortage of players running roulettes.

If roulettes don't appeal to you, don't run them, there are plenty of others who will.

Want EXP?
Spam your highest level dungeon, and do FATEs at or above your level. You still get comparable EXP and you get to use your full kit.

Tomes?
Expert roulette 5 times a week will cap you. Miss a day? Repeat the most recent dungeon a couple more times.

[Miles064]

That is a much better system than I thought they had so I'm glad WoW has come up with a solution that works for their game and players. Talking hypothetically though, even if they did manage to solve potency in a way everyone was happy with what people really seem to be asking for is all their abilities more so than normal damage numbers. I just can't see how people can have all their abilities and the game still maintain balance and a healthy experience for level appropriate players.

I guess I don't see the issue. If I make a fresh arms warrior in wow and go into a dungeon that has a higher level one, I can see stuff that ill end up getting later on. If I see the higher tank do something cool it might even make me want to play that class too. If anything it would show that classes are not as basic for the most part as they are at the current level and I have things to look forward to. Low levels get veterans to help them out, veterans get to play with the kits they earned, and both get the end rewards and can complete the dungeon.

[Mikey_R]

A threat or not, I am very interested to snack on your google doc link and its content.

Grace us with thy math!

You can do some very basic maths yourself if you feel inclined. I would suggest doing AoE attacks as they is the simpler one to look at. Take Paladin:

Level 15, Total Eclipse, 100 potency per GCD (P/G)
Level 40, Prominence, 170 potency, combos off of TE for 135 P/G

Now, this is where it gets fun:
Level 72, Magic Circle, 300 potency under Requiescat (which you will always do), 300 P/G for 5 GCDs, more than twice as much as the physical combo
Level 80, Confiteor, 900 potency, this alone increases the magic phase to 420 P/G, but wait, there is more
Level 90, Blade combo, 250 > 350 > 420 + 560 DoT = 526.6 P/G for those 3 attacks alone (half for anything not the main target)

For a level 90 PLD in an AoE situation I will use the following string of attacks:
TE > Prom > MCx4 > Con > Blade which is 10 attacks total At lower levels, replace with TE > Prom where applicable

Level 15 (all TE) 100 P/G
Level 40 (TE > Prom x5) 135 P/G
Level 72 (TE > Prom > MCx5 > TEx2+Prom) 214 P/G
Level 80 (TE > Prom > MCx4 > Con > TEx2 + Prom) 274 P/G
Level 90 (As detailed above) 405 P/G on main enemy 316 P/G on the remaining (only part where there is damage falloff)

Of course, this doesn't take into account CoS (225 DoT on everything) or the fact Spirits Within goes from 250 ST to 300 AoE with 50% falloff, however the main takeaway is, there isn't going to be a universal multiplier, or a magic formula you can use for everything, so it would all have to be done individually, for each dungeon for every job. Remember as well, AoE combos are easy, it's the single target where things get even more complex.