Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

Everyone keeps bringing up Emet’s dialogue at the end of the game. You realize he’s saying that while also not having even been given a chance to try and help his king back then right? Emet was one of the most powerful people back then, Hythlo was smart. Venat herself was smart and possible. If 6-7 random sundered can fight against Meteion, it stands to reason the Ancients could have figured out a way to fight back especially with the knowledge Venat had.Based on the Anamnesis dialogue, her followers didn’t even know what her plan was, so i doubt she told them much of anything, they hardly knew what was going on. She only started telling them after the final days occurred. What good does that do? If she had told them beforehand they very well could have survived and prospered again. Had she too been memory wiped them i would agree with what you’re saying as it would’ve made slightly more sense and would’ve been more an act of desperation of the unknown, but the fact is she knew, and kept it a secret. That’s the problem. She hardly even gave them a chance in the first place. The fact she was more willing to gamble the fate of the entire world with a familiar she had only just met vs trusting and hoping for her own people speaks volumes. Especially when this is basically congratulated on but the actual beings and people who helped and kept the star safe aren’t even remarked upon.

[Avidria]

...

I mean part of the problem here is SE playing with time travel, because Venat made the choices she did based on what we told her in addition to the actual real proof that what we said is true when the world, you know, started to actually end just like we said and just like Meteion told her, too. Which means I still have no idea what would've led her to make those choices if she hadn't met us, but it seems like they're implying (or at least it kinda makes sense) that she would've sundered the world anyway even without the bit of foreknowledge we gave her by traveling to the past.

Interestingly it isn't actually explicitly stated that Venat did keep that foreknowledge to herself. She explicitly states that she "must carefully consider who can be trusted and bring them into the fold." She kept it from the Fourteen to avoid tipping off Hermes... and if she told them immediately, then they would need to come up with a reason for suddenly taking the request to take up the seat of Fandaniel back if it came to it (and deprive themselves of any help he could offer in the 'present' time), or else risk Hermes potentially actively working against them. Presumably that means she did intend to share it with someone, but either didn't trust Hythlodaeus or Emet enough to not tell (and in Emet's case possibly not wanting to push him to go against the 14 as a member of the 14?) or had some other reason... or did tell them but either it was too late or they still ended up unable to do anything about the Final Days.

We don't actually know exactly how much time passes between Meteion leaving Elpis and the Final Days actually starting, but it was enough for Venat to gather a (apparently very small) group of very loyal followers and, evidently, come up with more than one plan of action - one of which it sounds like was entirely different, but that as far as I remember never gets explained. Back in ShB when we first learn Venat is Hydaelyn's heart, she and the other ancients talk about how the Convocation won't listen to their petition to turn away from their "current path" (presumably the whole trading lives to Zodiark forever thing) and she says it's "plain they (the 14) will not countenance a permanent solution." Whatever that means.

There are gaps in our knowledge obviously, gaps I wish they had touched on more for sure, but I don't think I can rightfully agree with the conclusion that Venat didn't give her people a chance before jumping to the extreme actions she took, which she admitted were extreme, and acknowledged directly led to a whole lot of suffering.

Bit of a tangent maybe, but I'm actually interested to see if Pandaemonium wraps up any of the loose ends here. We still don't know what Azem was doing during the End Days, or why they didn't even answer Venat & co's call for help. We also don't know how Emet & co. dodged the sundering. The main story is over, but there are definitely still some open questions roaming around, and we aren't through with Elpis yet.

[OhNooo]

The second phase of the final battle consisting solely of the boss flailing about did little to excite me. I'd sooner see the Scions do that for a change, especially since the same tactic was already pulled elsewhere with Thordan.

Each to their own, though I don't need mine or my character's ego stroked through such tactics.

Omg yes. I cringed so much in the second half especially during that part when she's like "Noooo the hatred...the pain...the lossss" *flail* and then Alphinaud's "We will stand against fate!" I was like c'mon lol.

The first half was good though.

[Lauront]

There are gaps in our knowledge obviously, gaps I wish they had touched on more for sure, but I don't think I can rightfully agree with the conclusion that Venat didn't give her people a chance before jumping to the extreme actions she took, which she admitted were extreme, and acknowledged directly led to a whole lot of suffering.

Whereas I don't think it's fair to say she did give them that opportunity if she was not forthright with her reasons and was instead working secretively with a slightly broader group while not fully disclosing her rationale to the Convocation etc. The sort of platitudes we're shown in the scene arguing with the ancients would not really suffice to convince anyone in that situation, IMO. The big problem here is that reasoning, as expressed in the pre-Elpis timeline, may well have been different and possibly less cogent, but in either case, as you noted, the issue here is she did not want to alter the ultimate outcome of the timeline. So really, that's the key blocker here. As for trading lives to Zodiark forever? It's never indicated it'd continue beyond releasing the souls stuck inside him, in a limbo. The original motivator was that her group wanted the sacrifices to stop, yes, but also because they had the ideological belief that the new lives (vague as to what these were), intended to be offered in exchange, should inherit the star. Without knowing her reasoning pre-Elpis, it's difficult to say whether it was correct or not. All we can really say is that there was an intention to keep the original timeline intact - it's also why many of us are not too pleased with the use of time travel in this way, because it's now served to simply open a new can of what-ifs rather than resolving earlier story conflicts.

[Rulakir]

We knew she had a group of people who believed her from ShB but they were in the minority, so it stands to reason she told people she trusted, and also people who can hold onto the secrecy of it all.

This is the dialog from Anyder.

Diplomatic Ancient One: Venat, please... Why must it be you? If I may speak plainly, I would sooner it were another... any other. You are our leader. None can take your place.
Venat: You know as well as I that but few support our cause. Far fewer than they who place their faith in Zodiark. If Hydaelyn is to stand a chance of opposing Him, I am the only one who might suffice as Her heart. Rest assured, however, I shall not vanish from this world. The form I take shall ever remain my choice.
Diplomatic Ancient One: Then I will press you no more. Only know this... you will be sorely missed. I wonder... is this how the Convocation felt about Elidibus?

This implies that Venat did not discuss the sundering with her followers. I can't imagine anyone supporting the destruction on their civilization, or signing up to be sundered if they knew what that entailed.

[Lauront]

This is the dialog from Anyder.

Diplomatic Ancient One: Venat, please... Why must it be you? If I may speak plainly, I would sooner it were another... any other. You are our leader. None can take your place.
Venat: You know as well as I that but few support our cause. Far fewer than they who place their faith in Zodiark. If Hydaelyn is to stand a chance of opposing Him, I am the only one who might suffice as Her heart. Rest assured, however, I shall not vanish from this world. The form I take shall ever remain my choice.
Diplomatic Ancient One: Then I will press you no more. Only know this... you will be sorely missed. I wonder... is this how the Convocation felt about Elidibus?

This implies that Venat did not discuss the sundering with her followers. I can't imagine anyone supporting the destruction on their civilization, or signing up to be sundered if they knew what that entailed.

IMO, it makes it less clear that the original goal was to sunder the star. Mayhap that became the goal post-Elpis shenanigans, but before then, it's a big fat question mark.

[Garnetiferous]

IMO, it makes it less clear that the original goal was to sunder the star. Mayhap that became the goal post-Elpis shenanigans, but before then, it's a big fat question mark.

I had originally thought that she sundered the world because she wanted to seal away Zodiark's power but because he was way stronger, she had to resort to a trick to do so, the sundering. But with the time loop, I don't know anymore.

[Avidria]

...

Yeah I say the forever thing a little tongue in cheek, but their big problem was that it WOULD involve a lot more sacrifice to bring back the lives (and the paradise) that the Ancients lost. It was an exchange of life for life, of present for past, and it kind of lies at the heart of the big debate we dealt with in Shadowbringers of Emet & co trying to do the same thing - sacrifice all current life (our world) to bring theirs back. It was the same choice, just maybe on a different scale. What's actually interesting to me is that apparently enough time has passed after Zodiark was summoned for there to BE new life, which... I'm really not sure what to make of that. I'm not sure if I'm missing something or what, but that feels like kind of a long recovery time before they came to the conclusion that there was enough new life to trade to effectively go back in time to enjoy the world as it used to be. I dunno, that's all speculation too.

Anyway, the cutscene after Elpis where we see Venat trying to reason with people and ultimately coming to the conclusion that forcing them to understand and embrace suffering was the only solution, was a lack of hope on her part - or really a loss of it. She saw her people clinging to an ideal, a perfect world that they lost, and choosing to sacrifice the present for the sake of the past, and she knew that this was a fairly fundamental core belief of the majority of her people. All through Elpis we see them eliminating things that don't fit their decided ideal for a perfect happy healthy star without a second thought, we see them as judge and executioner in one breath and we see that this is seen as good and beautiful and correct to them. Everything was good, and now everything has fallen apart, and they want to undo that change at any cost. That is what (I think) she was fundamentally opposed to - a path where everyone believes that any cost is acceptable if it means maintaining a perfect world without suffering.

Again, pure speculation, but what happens if another cataclysm comes? What happens if Zodiark's shield doesn't hold? What happens if some disease strikes, or if they fall to the same lines of thinking those "Dead" worlds Meteion found did? They have an extremely powerful tool that allows them to literally alter reality at their disposal, and they have demonstrated their willingness to use that power to trade lives like pieces on a game board. Where does it stop? It's definitely a very extreme and slippery slope kind of line of thinking, but I can see how Venat and her followers might see things that way.

...

I think it's a bit of that too. She was too weak to fight Zodiark head on, definitely, because the group sacrificed to summon Hydaelyn was MUCH smaller than the group that summoned Zodiark. They were a minority in the world left behind after half their population had already been sacrificed, so really there probably weren't a ton of options that didn't involve some level of fighting dirty regardless of what reasoning drove the actual solution she came up with.

[ladyalyth]

So I hate to say it but it feels like Square you guys seems to go down every other story

First you have ARR what i get you had to fix and it was eh ok
Then heavens what was very well done one of my favs
Then stormblood that was meh some ok parts but not as good as heavens
Shadow brings set a new standard for story but lack the narration what would of been nice this story was so good.
End walker I understand covid but honestly it feels like a disconnect and a step back to ARR at some points and at others heavens with the great narration but I could see where you guys was trying so hard to get me to feel something. But failed you was so close on some parts of the story but frankly I think it should of been held back longer so many people who i have talked to was so un happy with this "climax"

[Lauront]

Yeah I say the forever thing a little tongue in cheek, but their big problem was that it WOULD involve a lot more sacrifice to bring back the lives (and the paradise) that the Ancients lost. It was an exchange of life for life, of present for past, and it kind of lies at the heart of the big debate we dealt with in Shadowbringers of Emet & co trying to do the same thing - sacrifice all current life (our world) to bring theirs back. It was the same choice, just maybe on a different scale. What's actually interesting to me is that apparently enough time has passed after Zodiark was summoned for there to BE new life, which... I'm really not sure what to make of that. I'm not sure if I'm missing something or what, but that feels like kind of a long recovery time before they came to the conclusion that there was enough new life to trade to effectively go back in time to enjoy the world as it used to be. I dunno, that's all speculation too.

Speculating a bit here: darkness and activity go hand in hand. I suspect Zodiark stimulated the aether of the world, and allowed them to undertake similar work in Elpis (albeit not limited to their own aetheric reserves), to create beings the star would bestow souls upon (a reminder here: this does not mean they're ancients; any being designated as "living" has a soul, including various fauna and flora, so it can span a wide spectrum). I've posted this a few times, but we can see that there was broad disagreement within the Convocation and their broader society originally on the topic of these sacrifices. Something between the time Elidibus emerged from Zodiark and the act of summoning Hydaelyn swayed public opinion on this. If I had to guess? Elidibus's emergence revealed it was a feasible plan, and also that the ancient souls in Zodiark were caught in a limbo, which to them would be anathema given the value they placed on being able to re-connect with the star, and it is possible Elidibus confirmed this.

Anyway, the cutscene after Elpis where we see Venat trying to reason with people and ultimately coming to the conclusion that forcing them to understand and embrace suffering was the only solution, was a lack of hope on her part - or really a loss of it. She saw her people clinging to an ideal, a perfect world that they lost, and choosing to sacrifice the present for the sake of the past, and she knew that this was a fairly fundamental core belief of the majority of her people. All through Elpis we see them eliminating things that don't fit their decided ideal for a perfect happy healthy star without a second thought, we see them as judge and executioner in one breath and we see that this is seen as good and beautiful and correct to them. Everything was good, and now everything has fallen apart, and they want to undo that change at any cost. That is what (I think) she was fundamentally opposed to - a path where everyone believes that any cost is acceptable if it means maintaining a perfect world without suffering.

And to me this is why I don't really consider it to be giving them a chance to process the information learnt in Elpis. It amounts to advice on the matter, but which basically exhorts them not to put to use methods they have at their disposal to restore their star... but for what reason? If we supposed that the same fate hit the sundered, utterly desiccating their star, requiring 75% of their number in total to fix it, and then they realise they have a method to reverse this at a cost they deem acceptable - would arguments to the effect that suffering is essential sway them? My view is that no, it would not. It would not sway me personally, either, as someone hypothetically caught in that scenario. Not without some strong arguments as to why. The same arguments the time travel aspect of the plot prevents her from conveying to them.

Again, pure speculation, but what happens if another cataclysm comes? What happens if Zodiark's shield doesn't hold? What happens if some disease strikes, or if they fall to the same lines of thinking those "Dead" worlds Meteion found did? They have an extremely powerful tool that allows them to literally alter reality at their disposal, and they have demonstrated their willingness to use that power to trade lives like pieces on a game board. Where does it stop? It's definitely a very extreme and slippery slope kind of line of thinking, but I can see how Venat and her followers might see things that way.

And I will grant that those are fair points - if you're given an actual explanation of all that, and thus context for which to make adjustments if necessary to your civilisation. Unfortunately, she couldn't do that, which just makes the plot device all the more dissatisfactory to me.

I should also lay my cards on the table and say I found the way the Plenty was presented, coupled with the fate of the Ea, to be extremely hamfisted in how it was introduced. Yes, we're meant to assume this was how the ancients could end in the case of the former. I don't really find either scenario too plausible, as to how a star would end, unless we're talking about beings totally bereft of creativity. The immortal Fae find ways to bring purpose to their lives even if ultimately, they're beings that live rather perfect existences and want for nothing. Moreover, say time passes, and the sundered, sharing the same perfectionist tendencies as the ancients (striving for a better world, trying to minimise suffering - things we actively see the protagonists do and civilisations like Sharlayan and even Garlemald strive for) reach a similar end point again... why are we to assume that lessons in history books will prevent them going such a way? Or is it likelier that man, sundered or ancient, is simply creative enough to find other ways to occupy their time rather than resigning himself to the apathy which struck the inhabitants of the Plenty? The eventual heat death of the universe and fate of other stars, not mentioned in the story, to which they could attend, would in and of themselves provide a purpose, even if the Ea gave up in the process... It's what the writers put in there, and so I must suspend disbelief... if worse came to worst and they realised such a fate could hit them, I am convinced they would adapt accordingly.

But I digress... point is, for me to say they got a fair shot, I'd want to see how they'd react to a full recounting of what the Meteia learnt. Not platitudes about suffering devoid of context. I am not blaming Venat for being unable to really explain it all, even if I am not that keen on the character. It is frustration with the way the story unfolded, via the time travel plot.