Let's talk about Zenos *****Spoilers******

[Katie_Kitty]

Some very bad takes in here. Hildibrand must be a shit character too lol

Everything about Hildibrand was pretty awful, yeah!

[Darthgummibear]

If they weren't going to properly flesh out his story arc after the resurrection, they should have just left him dead. His entire presence since that point has been a major letdown not to mention they never explained how he did any of the things he did not the least of which was coming back to life in another body in the first place...or anything since.

I only see two options here...either they couldn't incorporate him going forward due to time constraints, or he's not dead. He did after all go down in a zone driven and powered by emotion.

[lezard21]

Zenos will show up again next expansion as the mysterious cloaked person that is helping the citizens/rebellion/whatever under the assumption that helping people is what made the WoL strong, all so that he can get another rematch. He is the Vegeta to the WoL's Goku.

[Thaciscokidd]

He is the Vegeta to the WoL's Goku.

This more than anything. Zeno's arc felt.... rushed like the pacing was off. Post Shadowbringers hyped up this conflict and all we got was dinner and a fight at the edge of the universe.

To add on to lezard, it feels like if Toriyama took Vegeta straight from the end of the Frieza saga straight to the Buu saga's final explosion. The points was there with that Galean kid(Julius?) and Alisaie critiquing him and getting him to possibly understand. With Estinien conformed due to two threatening female lalafel's and Gaius pretty much fully forgiven, Zenos could have been shaped into the Kaine of FF14, someone who we cant fully trust but will be there when we need them.

[Darkstride]

He isn't a battle maniac because there are far to many moments he decides to not fight the WoL because he recognizes the WoL has responsibilities to the world to save it.

That isn't why he chooses not to engage us. He wants to be our villain. He wants to us to need the fight with him as much as he does. He flat out tells us that our other foes are a distraction. He knows that if we have something bigger and more important to fight, then the battle will not satisfy him. And so he waits and gains power until the time that he is our strongest adversary and we have nothing else averting our gaze.

[TaleraRistain]

Before this expansion I hated this guy and was so sick of him. But now I hope he isn't dead. I feel like he did get some character development. Everyone kind of visits their own expectations on the WoL. Ironically, I feel like he's the only one who put effort into understanding us and interacts with us as just a person. A person he respects for our ability, but he's not impressed with the things we've accomplished.

I also think he did give us a boost at the end, in the way that your rival spurs you on. When he shows up and the first thing he does is give us guff because our opponent isn't dead yet, I was thinking "Shut up, I'm getting to it". I feel like in the future now that we've done the "Let's you and me fight" bit, he could roll up as that "Get in, loser, we're going to do X" meme and kick us in the behind when we need it.

I also think there's a lot of unanswered stuff about him that I'd really like to find out about now.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Not every character; Villain or Otherwise, needs to be this deeply written, fully fleshed out, charismatic, and or sympathetic person.
Sometimes you need a Simple Hero, or a Straightforward Villain. Or even an average Joe here or there to Balance things out.

Its not like Zenos was a Bad Villain at all, just simple and straightforward, which isnt a bad thing.
I appreciated having somebody legit put me in check, and then drive me to want to/need to beat him

Sometimes things can be, and are just that Simple

[dezzmont]

The issue comes down to the fact Zenos has two readings as a character, both valid, and the writing recognizes this... and then totally denies your ability to actually get any meaningful resolution from one of the angles.

Firstly, Zenos could be a dark reflection of what it means to be a PC in an MMO. He really DOES get you, understand you are here for the challenge of it all, the desire to fight bosses and win cool fights. If that is how you relate to Zenos, his ending is totally fine: He is a mirror of you that understood key aspects of you but didn't get the whole picture, a 'Story Skipper' if you will, and his desire to duel you and your ability to accept him as an awesome fight allowed that resolution to work.

However, there is the 'reject' reading of Zenos... which also is the reading that works better with the actual themes of XIV, which can be summarized as 'people matter, regardless of who they are, and the ultimate evil in the world is to reduce other people's value or agency, be it by declaring them a member of a beast tribe or just saying they were your enemy born rotten.' XIV goes VERY far out of its way to show that people tend to become the way they are for a reason and that conflict usually is a result of pressures (such as from history in HW, or for survival in SB) that cause strife, and the best thing we can do when someone tries to hurt us is to understand them. Zenos, in this reading, is sort of the antithesis of the entire plot of XIV: He doesn't believe in any sort of meaning, actively uses other people for pleasure, discards those that bore him, and revels in pointless cruelty.

And that is, again, fine, Zenos invoked a lot of strong feelings in me as a player, but the problem is that there was no catharsis for those feelings. I could offer token rejection, but in the end my final dialogue choice with him, an attempt to tell him I really was having none of what he was offering, made him HAPPY and our final moments together were a contemplative one (With the implication he somehow burnt some of my essence, extra gross), where Zenos got everything he wanted from me and there was no real refutation of his unethical hedonistic nihilism. Suddenly the story forced 'Zenos was right about you' on you, and a villain who served well as an antithesis to what the story was about just got a weird bit of unearned reverence and closure both your character and you the player were totally denied.

Some really minor re-writes would fix this trivially (just... add a dialgoue option that makes Zenos frustrated and mad that he doesn't get what he wants from you in the end and attack you out of rage of not understanding why he can't get you to be his ultimate frenemy' to start the fight, and a rejection in the aftermath as well, you just really need a chance for Zeno's story to end with the anti-climax rather than yours), but they really fumbled it in the final interaction.

[silentwindfr]

for me Zeno was more a reminder of what we are, we can hate his way, but in the end we are the same... the only difference is no one was here for him.... he is a monster that did kill tons of people.... we are a monster that did kill tons of monster and people. the part of garlemald is to show us the other side of the story. because in a war, you always have two side... each imperial soldier was human and we did kill them by dozen... Zenos did fight for a side and we for another.

but at end when we reach the final fight.... he don't see us as the heroes, the savior... no he see us for what we are... and don't ask for a fight against what we did become... he come to us for a challenge... what we have done soo far with each enemy... not because we was wanting, but because it's was needed. Zenos at the end is the first enemy that come simply challenge us... the adventurer.

and i feel this fight is a way to remind us that is our true self... an adventurer that explore and challenge stuff. like Azem....

i did find the duel the best way to end this... we are no more the hero... we are the adventurer, no one to save, no one to protect... a simple challenge against someone that look at us... not our title. and this end where we finish to a fight with fist exhausted... is perfect. we are different but we can accept the thing that are same... and at the end... he is the one that replace us in our role as adventurer... and for this Zenos have my respect...

Some really minor re-writes would fix this trivially (just... add a dialgoue option that makes Zenos frustrated and mad that he doesn't get what he wants from you in the end and attack you out of rage of not understanding why he can't get you to be his ultimate frenemy' to start the fight, and a rejection in the aftermath as well, you just really need a chance for Zeno's story to end with the anti-climax rather than yours), but they really fumbled it in the final interaction.

change this will make no sense since from the start he say we don't need to stay and fight... from the start he do understand that he can't force us to fight him... he accept our will to face him and whatever the reason we will choose. we need to face him for either because we can understand his point, we hate him and simply because is the best moment to do it without damage around.

zenos is not a villain... he was the villain of stormblood. at this point he was simply someone facing us. understanding that what he did with fandaniel was meaningless.

ps: all this duel was not here for conclude a feud... no... it was a point right after we did reach the end of this road... against all the stuff the ascien did until now. it's perfect when you see nothing is left. only him and us... this fight serve as a way to replace us in our role. it serve at end the fate of the warrior of light... from now we are adventurer. and zeno did help us to understand this. because like said we don't fight him for a grand reason. as adventurer we don't need one... hate, understanding or simply because it's convenient.

[Allegor]

Let's not talk about Zenos, and not even say we did. Drop him off at the nearest landfill please.

We don't talk about Zenos, no, no, no, we don't talk about Zenoooos~

...I'll show myself out