What is worth going to war for?

[Necrotica]

To respond to an earlier comment accusing me of acting in bad faith. I was looking to see what other things people saw as good reasons for war. Or even other hypocrisies or failings of the Sharlayan world view that they had spotted.

I did not expect so many defenders of pacifism. Just...shocking. Why? Why would you be unwilling to fight and defend that which you hold dear? Unless you hold nothing to be of value? Course at that point we get into the why live at all argument of the expansion.

I made the argument that the father asking 'what is worth going to war for' phrased in such a way as to imply NOTHING is worth going to war for, is dumb. There are a million good reasons for conflict. There are a million bad reasons. Had he asked 'what makes these Eorzean's worth fighting for?', that I could see as a good argument. If the game emphasized more that Sharlaya will fight and kill for their own interests, but not help others, that would have been fine. But the game presents it in such a way as to make the Sharlayans seems as holier than thou pacifists.

[Theodric]

I do not expect anyone in the setting to simply roll over and take anything forced upon them in either direction. At the same time, I also don't necessarily think a stance of avoidance and pacifism is the worst thing ever, either. If a particular nation or individual seeks to stay out of a conflict, then I do believe they should have the right to do as much. In the same vein, if they end up getting drawn into conflict then those same individuals or groups should, in turn, not necessarily expect help to arrive.

[Ryaz]

To respond to an earlier comment accusing me of acting in bad faith. I was looking to see what other things people saw as good reasons for war. Or even other hypocrisies or failings of the Sharlayan world view that they had spotted.

I did not expect so many defenders of pacifism. Just...shocking. Why? Why would you be unwilling to fight and defend that which you hold dear? Unless you hold nothing to be of value? Course at that point we get into the why live at all argument of the expansion.

I made the argument that the father asking 'what is worth going to war for' phrased in such a way as to imply NOTHING is worth going to war for, is dumb. There are a million good reasons for conflict. There are a million bad reasons. Had he asked 'what makes these Eorzean's worth fighting for?', that I could see as a good argument. If the game emphasized more that Sharlaya will fight and kill for their own interests, but not help others, that would have been fine. But the game presents it in such a way as to make the Sharlayans seems as holier than thou pacifists.

I don't think pacifism is bad, per say. If you can find a better way than violence, then I believe that should be the optimal path. Sometimes, you have to fight, to defend that which you love. But it should always be a last resort kind of thing.

I'm not even sure how capable the Sharlayans would be in a military situation. They're scholars, not warriors and they've focused so much of their time and energy into prepping for the final days, who knows how many resources the devoted to their military. They're a people who feel they're tasked with a higher purpose of helping people escape the star when the Final Days come. They're almost religious in that way and there are plenty of religions that preach pacifism (though not everyone follows those teachings, of course).

[Cleretic]

I'm not even sure how capable the Sharlayans would be in a military situation. They're scholars, not warriors and they've focused so much of their time and energy into prepping for the final days, who knows how many resources the devoted to their military. They're a people who feel they're tasked with a higher purpose of helping people escape the star when the Final Days come. They're almost religious in that way and there are plenty of religions that preach pacifism (though not everyone follows those teachings, of course).

If you want to argue the raw martial ability of Sharlayan, I think they've got some cred. Being the origins of both Sage and Astrologian (the version we get, at least) they certainly have the capability to hold their own in a fight.

However, they'd never actually have to get into a military situation, because they're not really a useful target; they're an isolated island nation with no clear strategic value or resources, and aren't inclined to get involved themselves, so they're unlikely to be in an offensive or defensive war. They have shown themselves adept at infiltration and subterfuge, though (hello, AST questline), so they're still not a fun enemy to make. More likely to assassinate key people than to actually organize an army.

[NoblePigeon]

To respond to an earlier comment accusing me of acting in bad faith. I was looking to see what other things people saw as good reasons for war. Or even other hypocrisies or failings of the Sharlayan world view that they had spotted.

I did not expect so many defenders of pacifism. Just...shocking. Why? Why would you be unwilling to fight and defend that which you hold dear? Unless you hold nothing to be of value? Course at that point we get into the why live at all argument of the expansion.

I made the argument that the father asking 'what is worth going to war for' phrased in such a way as to imply NOTHING is worth going to war for, is dumb. There are a million good reasons for conflict. There are a million bad reasons. Had he asked 'what makes these Eorzean's worth fighting for?', that I could see as a good argument. If the game emphasized more that Sharlaya will fight and kill for their own interests, but not help others, that would have been fine. But the game presents it in such a way as to make the Sharlayans seems as holier than thou pacifists.

They're valid and good reasons. Ones that I'm sure the Sharlayans have had levelled at them more than once, something the twins are likely very aware of. They weren't stupid, they simply couldn't answer in a way that wouldn't be snagged by one of the usual gotcha answers they likely come up with. The game also doesn't really side with or have the narrative frame their pacifism in an overly positive light. Louisoux, Matoya, the Circle of Knowing, the Archons, the Scions, ALL are Sharlayans that have, over the course of the entire storyline, were very much guided by the desire to help the world at large. Matoya is NOT subtle about calling the Forum spineless and craven. And we've certainly seen quite a few others, even if they abhor the practice of war, are not above helping out individuals, even if it's through decidedly non-pacifistic means.

[KariTheFox]

Exactly, the narrative ultimately comes out against the Sharlayan's position of absolute pacifism. I just think it's reductive to call them "stupid" for having. They are right in that war causing untold suffering and grief, and that it is difficult to justify. They think it is impossible, and they are not short-sighted or foolish for having that position, even if it is ultimately wrong.

But answering the question of what makes war worth fighting is difficult - especially when it's leveled by your own father as he disowns you. It wasn't just a scholarly debate for Alphinaud, it was a highly difficult and emotionally charged moment, you can't blame him for letting his usual rhetorical skills fail him at the time.

[Lauront]

People accusing others of being nazis and fascists over fictional story in a video game is insane. Makes you think about how drastically meaning of these terms have shifted from what they originally stand for.

But a quick note for that: understanding one's perspective =/= automatically agreeing with it. Please allow yourself to be curious and analyse things without emotional attachments.

Well said. It is what puts off a good many people from lore discussions in the first place.

Agreed. I'm just going to make use of the ignore function rather than engage such individuals moving forward. Perhaps it might be of benefit for others to consider doing the same.

^This.