What is worth going to war for?

[ddwarbird]

No, I don't support Nazi's as some people have claimed. I support a strong centralised government and although Garlean had its problems, everyone seems to forget that it was the treatment of the Garleans as they couldn't use magic to force them to become totalitarian in the first place. Its alright to decry Imperialism as "bad", blanketing over history with a singular judgement but everyone seems to forget that Garlean was FORCED into being like that. It does not excuse their crimes but the city states are equally guilty of crimes both in the past and present but that's excused because we have to fight for them.

The Garlean Empire offered a chance at uniting the world, rather then having 3 separate city states with three different agendas, lets not forget that Limsa Lominsa is essentially a ROGUE NATION because its formed out of pirates but that is excused too as they just said they were sorry and suddenly all was forgiven. Limsa has all the legitimacy of Somali pirates.

Lets not forget their treatment of the beast tribes that forced them to turn to summoning as a way to keep pace... but the story is perfectly fine with that. All three city states deserve to burn for their crimes, equally as much as the Garlean Empire did.

[Cleretic]

The Garlean Empire offered a chance at uniting the world, rather then having 3 separate city states with three different agendas, lets not forget that Limsa Lominsa is essentially a ROGUE NATION because its formed out of pirates but that is excused too as they just said they were sorry and suddenly all was forgiven.

'Uniting the world by oppressing the entirety of it' isn't exactly the best deal.

[Ryaz]

'Uniting the world by oppressing the entirety of it' isn't exactly the best deal.

For Fascists, that is the ideal. :\

[ddwarbird]

Ah... so we are on the "call the other person facist" argument... classy...

No, I am not defending Garlean's actions at all. But I think its important to understand why people make choices like that and the story very skilfully shows how persecution at the hands of others for differences can lead to a thirst for revenge. Its very relevant to our modern world today.

I mean, all the states of this game are guilty of some kind of barbarism. I think that is why its so poignant. All of them are guilty.

[Ryaz]

Ah... so we are on the "call the other person facist" argument... classy...

No, I am not defending Garlean's actions at all. But I think its important to understand why people make choices like that and the story very skilfully shows how persecution at the hands of others for differences can lead to a thirst for revenge. Its very relevant to our modern world today.

I mean, all the states of this game are guilty of some kind of barbarism. I think that is why its so poignant. All of them are guilty.

Well, dude. The Garleans ARE a fascist regime and you said you support them, so what do you expect? "Strong central governments" tend to be the backbone of fascism and suppress their people through fear and violence, and get rid of anyone who is "different". It's always been like that.

Yeah, the City-States weren't much better with their treatment of the beast tribes and they've been called out on it. That's why they actually changed in the end.

[ddwarbird]

First off, its a fictional game... and second, yes because I believe the city states are no better. If they hadn't treated the Garleans terribly in the first place, then they wouldn't have come back and invaded them. You can't treat somebody terribly and then wonder why they slapped you. Yes, the Garleans are terrible people and have done terrible things in the story but so have every other city state in the game. They are all as bad as each other.

If you want to know the truth, I agree with Meteion...

[ddwarbird]

As a opposed to what, rampant piracy, a pacifist tree hugging society and a desert city that is basically owned by big business.

[Cleretic]

As a opposed to what, rampant piracy, a pacifist tree hugging society and a desert city that is basically owned by big business.

Do better than just reiterating the points Varis makes when going for hollow, hypocritical point-scoring. Even Varis isn't good at that, and that's clear from what he swings at Gridania. He doesn't go for any of the actual problems with Gridania, he just goes for the thing that'll make Kan-e-Senna mad and then claims that's victory.

And remember that Varis is also a master race ideologist. He's just got a weird angle that someone else is the master race rather than his people.

[NoblePigeon]

Y'know I'm starting to see the merits of that other thread about arguments and discussion being made in bad faith. The OP clearly isn't interested in having their mind changed, and the rest of the thread somehow attracted a Garlean apologist vomiting the usual whataboutism/false equivalence garbage. I'll just say this:

If you support a strong, centralized government, Garlemald is not for you. It was never made to be orderly or peaceful by Emet-Selch. Deliberately designed to be dysfunctional, wasteful, and inefficient and breed hatred and resentment amongst its citizenry. Designed to collapse and spread maximum chaos and violence the second its head of state died.

The Empire's dead, and the Garlean people, and the world, is better off without it. Gaius himself acknowledges as much, and he's usually the one apologists turn to when they try to use the "few bad apples" fallacy.