Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

[Shinimas]

Endwalker is pretty confusing for me, emotional wise. By all means, I'm a pretty sentimental person. You give me good cutscene with emotional music, and I'll be hooked. Always has been since ARR; when we escape uldah, fight nidhogg in 3.3, liberating doma, having the alliance soldiers open our way to Ala mhigo castle, fighting emet and elidibus, and many more.

And yet... I rarely feel that way when playing endwalker. The climax of my experience is near the end of elpis, when we can't save the Ancients again. Second in place is when we meet emet and hythlodaeus in ultima Thule. Other than that, honestly not much. Theoretically, I should be feeling something when final days hit thavnair, or when the scion sacrifice themselves (though I can say enjoy Garlemald very much). But I didn't.

I guess it's due to how I disagree with a lot of things the game try to do/tell us. Too much comedy, final days feels less threatening than flood of light, zodiark get so little time screen, time travel being stupid, lopporit, I very much disagree with venat action and motivation, and dynamis being more deus ex machina than aether.

Fortunately Zenos see the memo that he's boring, and will always be, and has the decency to remove himself for most part of the game.

It's all just a bit too anime and melodramatic. So the universe is a cold uncaring place and we're all going to die... wow, what a revelation, surely nobody was aware of that. That's all it takes to create a deity of nihilism and depression?

[KizuyaKatogami]

Consider this:
A man is born into the world, faced with despair and realization that existence is meaningless, then he finds his reason to live, fights with despair to protect his reasons and ideals and eventually dies, his life's work building a road for next generations to move forward and fight their own fights and eventually die, to let others go forward and others go forward and...

Like it's one of the themes for both ShB and EW or something (and whole game in general really)... "For we who walk before may lead those who walk after".

This rings hollow though when said man is brought back to life 10 minutes later which directly goes against the themes lmao.

[Lunalepsy]

Look, a better way to phrase my thoughts.
-issues with graha's timeline and elpis...
-hydaelyn pretty much didnt even want to tell the ancients about hermes and his creation. thus the sundering of the worlds was partly her fault. even if she did and solved it all back then, we wouldn't even be here in eorzea. so the story cancels itself.
- odd pacing, we are playing dressup with bunnies while the world is ending at radz at han.
- they made zenos follow us for 4 years and we don't even get to hear his last words?

i am done editing this thread, i've concluded that people are just mad i'm critiquing their favorite games' story. i started in 2019, and square had a great thing rolling with shadowbringers but they just dropped the ball. im probably gonna end up quitting.

I complete agree with you.

[Dewslam]

It feels to me like they could have introduced the whole despair and emotional power thing without having to weirdly retcon in a surprise antagonist that's secretly been responsible for literally everything, even the actual antagonists we've been dealing with the whole time, just to give us a big monster to punch and say we've punched the problems away. It gives me real Zeomus, Necron, Ultimecia, and yu yevon vibes. Which is to say that it isn't uniquely bad among final fantasy games, they literally have a history of doing this. It just feels like a lame way to do the big climax of literal years worth of story.

So why did the End Times happen, why was everything so fucked up, why did the worlds get sundered and why did any of this happen the way it happened? Because a sad man launched some little bird girls into space and they got extra sad and decided to kill the world.

EDIT: also I'm still mad that the whole elpis segment was also effectively retconned, narratively, by the doofiest dang plot device, a magical memory machine invented by the sad man that was mentioned literally once like a third of the way through the whole ordeal and never again until it was time to make sure emet-selch regressed as a character.

[Lauront]

Endwalker is pretty confusing for me, emotional wise. By all means, I'm a pretty sentimental person. You give me good cutscene with emotional music, and I'll be hooked. Always has been since ARR; when we escape uldah, fight nidhogg in 3.3, liberating doma, having the alliance soldiers open our way to Ala mhigo castle, fighting emet and elidibus, and many more.

And yet... I rarely feel that way when playing endwalker. The climax of my experience is near the end of elpis, when we can't save the Ancients again. Second in place is when we meet emet and hythlodaeus in ultima Thule. Other than that, honestly not much. Theoretically, I should be feeling something when final days hit thavnair, or when the scion sacrifice themselves (though I can say enjoy Garlemald very much). But I didn't.

I guess it's due to how I disagree with a lot of things the game try to do/tell us. Too much comedy, final days feels less threatening than flood of light, zodiark get so little time screen, time travel being stupid, lopporit, I very much disagree with venat action and motivation, and dynamis being more deus ex machina than aether.

Fortunately Zenos see the memo that he's boring, and will always be, and has the decency to remove himself for most part of the game.

I thought it was a rather poor comedy at times. Endsinger fight felt like a joke, especially the final phase - all that build up... for that. Way too melodramatic. Too many themes hammered repeatedly at various points, and at the same time often inconsistent and, when you think about it, not really analogous to other situations. No matter how many times they try hammer the same trite point about bringing back the "dead", it does not in the least affect my view of releasing the souls caught in a limbo in Zodiark. The setting's metaphysics make the point it is trying to push seem like nothing but a caprice. And of course you just bring back the Scions, so it's a case of "rules for thee but not for me". The message is supposed to be one of hope but it ends up just being a case of if you're wrapped in several layers of plot armour, you'll be fine.

[AnotherPerson]

It's all just a bit too anime and melodramatic. So the universe is a cold uncaring place and we're all going to die... wow, what a revelation, surely nobody was aware of that. That's all it takes to create a deity of nihilism and depression?

It rings hallow because you assume that you will never achieve immortality and live to see that moment - to experience it yourself. Nah, these people who achieved immortality will live to the end to see it. That's a different story, because now it no longer feels like a distant reality, but a ticking time bomb. The people, with their vast knowledge, apparently did not find the solution to stopping the world's demise, so they, and their immortal descendants will experience the end with them, which denounces their whole goal of working towards immortality. I guess the best example would be if the Amaurots did not have a being like Zodiark in the calamity of the Final Days to turn towards for succor after experiencing the end. They would just be bereft of hope, and in despair.

For people who have finite lifespans, the end is assumed. Imperfect beings like us make most of what we got, and we don't always look past our lifespans, except for considering close descendants. Descendants 1000 years down the line? Most people with a lifespan of 100 years wouldn't worry nor care about that. For civilization to dedicate their entire lives towards preventing their end, and then get slapped in the face that their work is for naught because they're goanna die regardless... is enough for most people to kill themselves at all the wasted effort. That's pretty much something that happens irl too if people can't move forward, except this is depression that leads to eventual suicide on a massive civilization scale. Multiple civilizations, in fact. We don't know the sheer number of planets Meteion's sisters visited, but it was a lot more than just the 6 to 7 we saw.

The deity of nihilism and depression is just there to speed things up after feeling all that pain, because they also share that feeling with others. So if you were burdened with depression, it's like having another problem making your depression worse and worse. That very being would intensify the negative thoughts and could push you to the brink and make you do something you might have regretted, if no one came to intervene. Something like that happened to all the civilizations Meteion met, except on a massive scale. I'd say they at least told this well for someone who had intense depression before.

All in all, it's a lot to take in because of the way the narrative expects you to remember all the expansions you done (hint hint: Ishikawa's reminder), and most people can't fully fathom such despair without experiencing the problem themselves first hand. Our journey was mostly smooth, full of hope & resolve because of those who paved the way before (Venat & to a lesser extent, the Scions) to ensure those who come after can still exist. If Venat never came to our timeline, we would've lost everyone, with no chance of getting them back. If we had weaker emotions and start despairing at any point as we saw the scions meet their end because we didn't fortify our resolve, we would've immediately been killed off by Meteion's emotions from the getgo. Like... imagine if Haurchefant died, but instead of Edmont saying he understood, he cursed us. Imagine if we went to the Aitascope, and Haurchefant cursed us. Even for those who gave up their lives, they done so in a way that continued to inspire us.

We didn't disagree with Meteion saying that death will inevitably happen. Rather, the main takeaway here is that, our story is still a direct parallel to what Meteion's supposed end should feel. We, be our actions, our emotions, and our feelings, will shape how our lives will end. Even if the end will eventually come to all scions, we can fight for when it will happen, because we have the resolve to continue trying and continue on, whether we are happy or sad. That's why the Scions who gave up their lives didn't have any doubts of sacrificing themselves when their time had to come pave a road forward, and their emotions were no weaker than the emotions of Civilizations in full despair. We would have carried the fight on regardless because of the buildup of emotions we had. The Scions coming back was just the cherry on top.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Our journey was mostly smooth, full of hope & resolve because of those who paved the way before (Venat

Ah yes, destroying the world of your people because you’re bereft of hope for them is paving the way. Such a hero such a hero. Guess the moral of this story is dont have hope in your family and friends, instead place all of your hope in people(someone) youve just met. Oh and also its okay to sacrifice yourself since apparently you'll just be brought back 10 minutes later with the power of friendship! Deep story.

[Floortank]

It feels to me like they could have introduced the whole despair and emotional power thing without having to weirdly retcon in a surprise antagonist that's secretly been responsible for literally everything, even the actual antagonists we've been dealing with the whole time, just to give us a big monster to punch and say we've punched the problems away. It gives me real Zeomus, Necron, Ultimecia, and yu yevon vibes. Which is to say that it isn't uniquely bad among final fantasy games, they literally have a history of doing this. It just feels like a lame way to do the big climax of literal years worth of story.

Yu Yevon and Ultimecia aren't surprise bosses. Yu Yevon in particular is thoroughly discussed throughout the whole story, with more layers of lies peeled off as you get closer to the truth, and the ending of the game. While Ultimecia doesn't show up until the very end, she is pointed out as the villain very early in the game and her actions are repeatedly central to the plot's focus.

The problem with Meteion isn't that she's a surprise boss. She's not. They set her up very convincingly to be our foe in Elpis. The problem is that instead of contacting some sort of diametrically opposed sentience hostile to life itself, ala Zeromus, and becoming infected by it, she simply becomes a template of all the despair and disharmony in the universe, and decides to commit universal suicide to shut it all off. This leaves us essentially without a villain, because she is a victim.

They even pull the rug out from under our feet in the final battle. "Blue" / "good" Meteion vanishes from the story at the end of Elpis, vanishes utterly, but then suddenly appears again in the final battle, fluttering about the Endsinger's head and begging her not to do what she's been doing. Again, they rip out the idea that we're even looking at a villain, and rather something like a cosmic accident or a powerful misunderstanding. It becomes annoying rather than exciting at that point, just being a janitor or a cosmic babysitter.

If they were gonna go the victim rout, they should have had her get possessed and infected by something like Zeromus. Some actual wicked alien force antithetical to life, moving through the dynamis to poison her and manifest through her. But instead they made it just "baby had a nightmare" and that makes our role the person giving her a bottle.

[Satarn]

The people, with their vast knowledge, apparently did not find the solution to stopping the world's demise, so they, and their immortal descendants will experience the end with them, which denounces their whole goal of working towards immortality.

The problem with the Ea's "death of the universe" conundrum, is that it's trying to base itself on our world's science and laws while in a setting that works under completely different rules, without the writers properly considering how those rules change the outcome.

The space is expanding and one day the stars will be too far from the planets to give them any life-supporting heat? So? Who gives a crap? Literally just in this expansion we have seen two artificial suns made by two different groups of people, through different means. Just make some of those with magic, heck, summon a giant sun-primal that follows the planet even when the space expands. You're worried about atmosphere or gravity? Have you seen Ultima Thule? Or even just the moon? Is weather an issue for you? Don't worry, Sharlayans can just make that too.

Real-life issues don't really apply when you have this kind of magic and technology and it's silly to pretend it does, just to make it more "realistic" and "hit close to home" to provoke a more emotional response form people. In the end it breaks the suspension of disbelief, makes the characters look like idiots (although Enwalker has really felt like characters taking stupid pills for the entire storyline) and ultimately falls flat.

Speaking of stupid pills - I wonder how the heck was leaving Eatheris supposed to save people from The Final Days. If anything it would just make them even more exposed to Meteia and their dynamis-based powers, given how most of the universe isn't actually as dense in aether as The Star. Good plan.

[Velnora]

Yu Yevon and Ultimecia aren't surprise bosses. Yu Yevon in particular is thoroughly discussed throughout the whole story, with more layers of lies peeled off as you get closer to the truth, and the ending of the game. While Ultimecia doesn't show up until the very end, she is pointed out as the villain very early in the game and her actions are repeatedly central to the plot's focus.

The problem with Meteion isn't that she's a surprise boss. She's not. They set her up very convincingly to be our foe in Elpis. The problem is that instead of contacting some sort of diametrically opposed sentience hostile to life itself, ala Zeromus, and becoming infected by it, she simply becomes a template of all the despair and disharmony in the universe, and decides to commit universal suicide to shut it all off. This leaves us essentially without a villain, because she is a victim.

They even pull the rug out from under our feet in the final battle. "Blue" / "good" Meteion vanishes from the story at the end of Elpis, vanishes utterly, but then suddenly appears again in the final battle, fluttering about the Endsinger's head and begging her not to do what she's been doing. Again, they rip out the idea that we're even looking at a villain, and rather something like a cosmic accident or a powerful misunderstanding. It becomes annoying rather than exciting at that point, just being a janitor or a cosmic babysitter.

If they were gonna go the victim rout, they should have had her get possessed and infected by something like Zeromus. Some actual wicked alien force antithetical to life, moving through the dynamis to poison her and manifest through her. But instead they made it just "baby had a nightmare" and that makes our role the person giving her a bottle.

Meteion is a surprise because she was introduced in the second to last zone. Over the course of a 10 year build up. Yu Yevon was brought up over the course of 10, but seemingly appeared out of nowhere. Jecht, by many, is considered the true final boss. As with Necron, it just shows up.