Tank healing is to high

[OdinelStarrei]

You just like to be contrary don't you? On literally EVERYTHING.

I have this person blocked because their posts give me a legitimate headache and I refuse to entertain people who have no desire to have their opinions challenged, but the rest of you continue to quote their posts, and I see them anyway. If any of you have been in General Discussion, you'll know that it's besieged by trolls constantly. The thing with those people, is that they obviously post really controversial/factually incorrect information with the intent of getting a rise out of people. On their mains, they're probably entirely legitimate players with working brains.

Thankfully, the role forums have mostly been free of this kind of stuff, and for those who truly don't know how the game works, they are given an opportunity to learn just how stagnant our version of the holy trinity has become, and probably become a more confident and better player from it.
But every once in a while, we get someone like this.

If you read this, you "75 percentile SCH" with consistently atrocious takes and useless personal anecdotes, please block me so ideally, we can interact even less, thank you. I have no idea how Sebazy or Hyomin or really anyone from the healer forums tolerates you and your bad faith excuses for reasonable discussions. Square Enix job designers listen better than you do.

With that being said...

Stop lmao, the only reason that was possible is because of 2x Arcane Crest and 4x Improvised Finish not because of tanks.

If you're going to talk at least be knowledgeable on the matter so follow your own advice and stop with the spreading of nonsense.

Nothing I said was wrong!

I am AGREEING with you in the next post you made. I said, it shouldn't be possible regardless of composition, because the core underlying fact is that it's a trident of design failures.

Why are the boss auto attacks and "tankbusters" so weak and infrequent/tank recovery options so plentiful that tanks don't even require even a single healer resource to upkeep?
Why is the raidwide damage and bleed DoTs so ineffectual and that it's practically irrelevant in the face of a few mitigation sources and an Arcane Crest?
Why is Arcane Crest so powerful and on such a low cooldown? How is this even fair to Shadeshift, or Dragoons in general, who have literally no defensives (Life Surges are not defensives)
Why is the healer design so overwhelming skewed into "solving other people's mistakes" vs having real, noticeable impact on a farm experience instead of being relegated to +1% party buff and "we need to have a healer for mechanics 1st, healing 2nd"

Pigeonholing six specific DPS, regardless of what they actually are, still doesn't remove the fact that the healer role is entirely absent. It's one thing to solo tank, or solo heal an encounter, but it's another to completely abandon the healers all together in expansion launch endgame, so quickly, that's my issue. The fight itself is only part of it, the overarching design is the problem, and it's a problem that invincible tanks are just going to proliferate after the progression experience.

What's the common complaint on healers right now? There's nothing to do, unless an emergency happens and it's salvageable(which it often isn't), otherwise it's 21111111 with the occasional, and better implemented to their credit, oGCD weave. So instead of giving the healers things to heal, like they've been asking, they get to deal with eternal tanks circle-supporting each other, an encounter design team that can't make things interesting for healer mains after progression because of gear creep, and DPS who can do their jobs for them if you stack a certain comp in our current endgame. I understand a bit of the discontent, and frustration at the lack of their agency in encounters, even if this is a unorthodox situation.

So rather than saying "Tank healing is too high!" Maybe instead what needs to be said is "Encounter damage is too low/non-threatening!"

And to continue another side discussion...

And just to address a side discussion from earlier:
I think most of the situations you've described for Oblation can be summarized as: TBN is on cooldown, and every little bit helps, so why not? But I think you'd have to find some very specific HP thresholds at 10% DR for Oblation to be the deciding factor in a player living or dying from a targeted attack.

And if we're talking about using the charges to shield two players simultaneously, then really what we're getting at is a situation in which TBN, Reprisal, and all of the other job specific raidwide mitigation tools are on cooldown. And for that matter, Sheltron/Intervention have effectively been operating on a 2 charge system from baseline, and both actions are considerably more useful now. So this isn't even breaking novel ground in terms of flexibility.

I can't argue that Oblation has no value at all. But then again, the original iteration of Shake it Off also had 'value', but there was blood in the streets over that one because it was too niche. Well, that and the fact that WARs demand efficiency in their actions.

Would I trade Oblation for a second charge on TBN and a second storage stack of Dark Arts? Probably. Would I trade Oblation for Arcane Crest? Ye- er, no, get your grubby paws off my actions! Would I trade Oblation for a 10% bubble that generates gauge/Dark Arts when used on a tankbuster and plays a little shattering sound when it breaks? Definitely. I agree that it looks cool. That's pretty much it.

This is exactly why I said it needed to be buffed. The position of the skill is alright, but the effectiveness is lacking. Had someone last night using it on it's own on cooldown like a Rampart and was wondering why they kept dying. It honestly feels like someone had a good idea, made an animation for it, then shelved the actual design of the ability until late in development, or it was radically altered and had to hash something together in a week. As in, I know they can do better than this. Something similar to Arcane Crest, at least in terms of rewarding defensive mitigation with more defensive mitigation, is a healthy decision, one that is entirely absent on DRK right now. While the shift to 2mins vs 1mins have decreased my desire for additional Dark Arts stacks for aDPS padding, at least that would've been an easy 1-to-1 improvement in comparison to the esoteric, nuanced, and probably placebo improvements the job got outside of pure numbers. And that's coming from me, the person who thinks Blood Weapon stacks would be an expansion-level change that I have been unironically seeing in my dreams lately, I'm that tilted about it.

Even when things begin to hit much harder in the savage tier, will my theories actually prove to be honest raid contributions, or just hot air to justify the extra two buttons on my hotbar? I hope for the former, but prior experience is leading me to the latter conclusion. But outside from buffing Oblation, I have no real hope anything else will substantially alter, it's been too long with things in this state for me to believe otherwise. And even that minor comfort might not pan out with TBN still being lauded on the JP side.

Feels really odd to be playing the "worst" job in the entire game. Hope you're enjoying RPR though! Got mine to 90, had a blast playing it the entire time. At least something you suggested (Ingress/Egress) for DRK got put in the game in some form. Happy coincidences.

[ASkellington]

So rather than saying "Tank healing is too high!" Maybe instead what needs to be said is "Encounter damage is too low/non-threatening!"

This. Bring DRK's self healing up and scale the damage up to a reasonable level. Its clear we have the tools for higher incoming damage. I don't see why we don't have it.

[Shalan]

So rather than saying "Tank healing is too high!" Maybe instead what needs to be said is "Encounter damage is too low/non-threatening!"

The problem with this is that we have been pushing for this already, prior to the current discussion surrounding tank healing. Healers have been asking and hoping for more serious damage to offset the loss of our DPS kits since the media tour for ShB when they showed us our butchered classes.

As a result of the discussions around the idea, two conclusions were met and widely agreed upon:

1.) Increased healing requirements would alienate the uber-casuals and prevent them from progressing, which Yoshi has outright stated they will not do.

2.) Undertaking such a change would likely be prohibitively costly to plan and implement for the devs at a time when they're trying to release an expansion. Ideally, they would be retooling fights across all the expansions of the game to reflect the new (as of ShB) healer toolkits and gradually ramp up the healing difficulty. That way you wouldn't just have 70 levels of gameplay and then just hit a brick wall to overcome when you hit ShB content.

Ideally, the last expansion would have been the best time for them to plan out such a thing, given their excuse in the last expansion for not giving us a healer was to better balance the role and fix gameplay issues (only to not do just that).


Ultimately, it's unlikely we'll ever get more threatening damage. Probably moreso due to #1 than 2.

That being said, we also don't want to make the content impossible for players with not as high a skill level to clear. Because if we make it too intense, the number of people who can clear the content will be very limited. We don't want to have a situation where somebody is just healing the whole time, like ALL the time, or like have to HAVE to manage MP constantly.

- Yoshi in interview with Mizzteq

[Semirhage]

So rather than saying "Tank healing is too high!" Maybe instead what needs to be said is "Encounter damage is too low/non-threatening!"

I agree with the tenor of what you're saying, but I also think the issues with tank and healer design are deeper than the length of a post title would allow. If you just double or tripled encounter damage, you'd get A) Sylphies squealing that healing is IMPOSSIBLEEEEEEE (despite still being pretty easy), and B) the healing kits themselves aren't that interesting either. Cure Cure Cure Cure Cure Cure isn't that much more fun than Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare, at least not in my estimation.

As for the thread topic, healer obsolescence is a symptom of a lot of things, some of which are entirely separate from tank self-sustain. On the other side of that token, I think there's something fundamentally wrong with a role in a self-declared multiplayer, teamwork-based game that has nigh invincible levels of defense, can heal itself nearly as well as a dedicated healer, and can put out enough damage that it's not significantly more painful than using a dedicated damage dealer. What is this, Skyrim? Archmage of the mage's guild, heavy armor, soloing dragons, that's all good and well in a single player RPG but a one man "good at everything" army pokes some holes in the "multiplayer" descriptor.

FFXIV is *barely* a trinity game.

[Shurrikhan]

So rather than saying "Tank healing is too high!" Maybe instead what needs to be said is "Encounter damage is too low/non-threatening!"

Those discussions aren't mutually exclusive, though.

First, on an adjacent discussion (since these two points would otherwise be less relevant to each other than not) if there is slightly too little damage for non-tanks, but far too little for tanks, then tank damage intake, specifically, is also too low, in addition to the encounter's output.

That may be a matter of the frequency of defensive options to counter that damage, such that tanks need no direct healing beyond ST oGCDs, Kardia/Embrace, and maybe a Regen/AB per minute, or it may be a matter of their passive eHP, but whatever the case, that would be a difference beyond that seen by other roles and one which many tanks and healers find detrimental to the overall experience.

For tank healing, though, there's also a tremendous difference between short-lived barriers like TBN, damage (and mitigation, since one cannot block mid-cast)-consuming trade-offs like Clemency, and the likes of Bloodwhetting doing a minimum of twice TBN's (in practice / shield-breakable) output while applicable before, during, or after damage, such that one could get good effect out of it (both fully consume the shield, get notable mitigation under their 8 seconds' duration, and top themselves off even w/o using guaranteed Crits) if simply left to one's own devices and playing while watching solely their TV between movement mechanics. The last among those is not only overly powerful but also overly applicable, greatly reducing the gap between blind and skillful play. And when the most defensively powerful tool or the job that holds it is the least dependent upon skillful use, that feels bad for the whole role, even before getting into matters of interactions between different roles.

Yes, encounter design is currently too forgiving, but if anyone's going to make the case that tanks should be able to clutch out a lack of healer, then the same case should also be made for a lack of tanks. And when tanks passively mitigate for so much more than non-tanks, and have tremendously more eHP, bringing encounter damage up to tank's overtuned state would quickly remove any ability to precede without a tank, all while only making it slightly harder to precede without a healer (since raid damage certainly can't increase to the extent that white damage or the like against tanks can).

The tank role includes those jobs and problematic designs that are the bottleneck right now and it would be better to first deal with (1) imbalances in skill/precision to reward in the tank role and (2) the sheer amount of passive defensive throughput available to tanks before tuning encounters as a whole.