Endwalker's story had me, but lost me. Ethical issues especially (spoilers)

[EdwinLi]

EDIT: I'd also like to add, with or without Meteion it seems heavily implied by the story the Ancients would have destroyed themselves eventually anyways. Every single cosmic race achieved paradise and ultimately destroyed themselves because they didn't have hope - the only exception being Midgardsormir. The Ancients likely would have came to this conclusion as well, seeing as how there was no sign that they knew hope as we do. Most likely they would've found they improved the star with their creation magics to the point there was no more improvement, and without any further goal they would've probably creationed themselves to death.

Yep, this part is actually shown in the final story dungeon with the last civilization being that they achieved what the Ancients wanted to achieve for their star but the cost is that they lost all meaning to basically everything. Everything they do was basically a "meh" feeling to them. While nothing gave them any type of negative emotions like anger, hatred, and despair along with no worries about bills, food, water, a home, and anything that we have to worry about everyday of our lives they lost the ability to feel any happiness, excitment, purpose, and self satisfaction as well.

Each of the civilizations in the Final Dungeon can basically be a reflection of what certain civilizations in the Source would have ended up as if they achieved their goals. The 2nd civilization before the final one is basically what would have happened in the Garlean Empire continued with their conquest over the world as another example.

[Rulakir]

The dynamis defense means that Venat never had any intention of aiding her brethren, the goal was always going to be to destroy their civilization. This particularly gets sketchy if you consider the WoL was the best chance of defeating Meteion at 8x rejoined, but Hydaelyn created almost double that amount of reflections.

The "perfection" defense isn't any less morally questionable. It's essentially Minority Report. You've seen visions that this will occur, you intervene to prevent it from occurring, but you fail to take into account any possibility that it might not have occurred. Even in the film they determine this to be wrong and change procedure. It also reminds me of a line from a different film where a man who murdered his wife said, "She would've died anyway! ...in another 40 years or so." Emet's question should've been presented to Venat, "Who are you to decide our fate?"

It also means that all Venat did was delay the inevitable. Etheirys (and its shards) is still doomed at some point in the future unless someone else takes it upon themselves to make the executive decision that civilization has progressed too far and needs to be 'reset' for life to continue. That's assuming it doesn't go the route of a world war, plague, or famine like some of the others.

[Pofruin]

About blanked Empathy and saving Ancients. We ARE saving them! Always and ever. Cause we ARE them, minus Creation magic and god complex.

And to drive point home with Garlean parallels. Saving Garleans doesn't mean that we will build an airship and go fly to bomb some beast tribes. "Cause it's The Garlean Way!". Saving the Garlean People does not mean that I'm fine with them rebuilding world conquering Empire.

Same thing with Ancients. It's their culture and creation magic that goes the way of Dodo. And about the culture if we can get our hands on records I'm all for preserving those. What else really was lost with Sundering? And culturally it appears Sundering was only positive. If one goes by Hythlos monologue about shark monsters Ancient society is bit Creatively taped out.

@LittleArrow
I'd add that Alpha is inheritor of Omega. Thus making that Omicrons dodged the Oblivion also for now. Thier form is completely different, but self-enchanting was always their thing.

[Anonymoose]

Azem being in on Venat's plans is going to cause me to lose even more faith than I already have in the narrative going forward. What we know of Azem's shards, the WoL and Ardbert, they'd go above and beyond to save their world and they wouldn't give up on their friends. I could not accept Azem being an accessory to one best friend sacrificing himself to Zodiark and another spending 12k years on the frayed ends of sanity trying to put their world back together. I'm deeply concerned with Azem being involved with Pandemonium based on what I've seen in EW. The morality of the sundering is questionable enough on its own without having OG Azem act in a way that's inconsistent with their future counterparts. I sincerely hope they are not going in that direction.

You're hitting the nail on the head for why I'm already confused. Why I've been confused. Elpis depicted them all as pretty close before this hit the fan, and yet Azem walked away from the Convocation's plans - turning their back on Emet-Selch and Elidibus - and also refused to join Venat?

I expected Azem to play a role in Endwalker based on that but...crickets. I expected it to be revealed that Azem came back to town with 11 friends or something. That might still be true in Myths of the Realm...but we also see Azem's hand in Pandaemonium, ensuring Elidibus will be in the right place at the right time to intercept the Warrior of Light responding to the blue memory crystal... The same crystal that appeared in the right place at the right time to end up in the Warrior of Light's hands by way of the aetherial sea outpost Sharlayan was using to talk to Hydaelyn...

Therefore, I can't yet discount the idea that the reason Azem never joined Venat's gang was that they knew the plan for for them to sacrifice themselves to turn her into the counterbalance she already knew she needed to become to lead the legacy of the Ancients towards their only means of defeating the Sound... and in that case...what was Azem's role in ensuring the plan worked out?

Again, I lean pretty hard on that Hades gives his assent to being the keystone of this plot in the end; his sole expression of negativity is regret that the only path leading away from victory over the sound could not wind back to the world he loved. ("That's why I fought you, and why I lost."). But he says he's ready to move on. That his message from all the beings of our world - past, present, and future in chorus - is to refuse the ending Meteion prepared. He tells the Warrior of Light to "let the curtain fall" on the Ancients and the Sound and "set the stage anew" for whatever form he returns in.

If even Hades can say that, the possibilities for Azem are pretty open, no? lol

Even just making Venat the previous Azem I feel upsets the neutrality optics by quite a lot. Or is that classic misdirection? lol

[EdwinLi]

You're hitting the nail on the head for why I'm already confused. Elpis depicted them all as pretty close before this all hit the fan, and yet Azem walked away from the Convocation's plans - turning their back on Emet-Selch and Elidibus, and also refused to join Venat? I expected Azem to play a role in Endwalker based on that but...crickets. I expected it to be revealed that Azem came back to down with 11 friends or something. Where'd they go? My #1 suspicion was then Myths of the Realm. But we see Azem in Pandaemonium setting Elidibus up to be in the right place at the right time to intercept the Warrior of Light responding to the blue memory crystal that also appeared at the right place and the right time to end up in the Warrior of Light's hands...

So I can't yet discount the idea that the reason Azem never joined Venat's gang was that they sacrificed themselves to turn her into the counterbalance she knew she needed to become to lead the legacy of the Ancients towards defeating the Sound, while they needed to do something else to ensure her plan worked out.

Again, I lean pretty hard on that Hades gives his assent to this in the end; his sole expression of negativity is regret that the only path leading away from victory over the sound does not wind back to the world he loved. ("That's why I fought you, and why I lost."). But he says he's ready to move on. That his message from all the beings of our world - past, present, and future in chorus - is to refuse the ending Meteion prepared. He tells the Warrior of Light to "let the curtain fall" on the Ancients and the Sound and "set the stage anew" for whatever form he returns in.

If even Hades can say that, the possibilities for Azem are pretty open, lol.

I think the very big issue with Azem part in the storyline is that we don't even know what Azem role is in this picture to begin with.

Only thing we know about Azem is that he/she was the original WoL and everything he/she did is the samething WoL is doing now.

The story basically introduced Azem but did not even introduce what role he/she played beyond just being "our past life self" person. Heck, at this point I won't be surprised if some how they explain in Season 2 storyline that Azem was busy with something else so he/she never got involved in anything Hydaelyn versus Zodiark plots due to being too busy preparing for a different world ending threat.

Though I won't be surprised if this is true consider the 6.0 Raid reveals that Azem was self aware about his/her future self as WoL and in 6.0 main story we learn his/her job as the seat of Azem was to explore the world as a Adventurer and protect it from threats as the Protector of the Star. Not to mention the whole "multiple world ending threats happen at the sametime but separate story that run parallel with each other" has been a common story in many series. One story we are aware about because that is the story we follow currently being Meteion/Final Days but another world ending threat we are unaware about because that story is not being shown currently which could be what Azem was so busy with to not be involved with Hydaelyn/Zodiark events.

[Kuroka]

My bet would be Venat just told Azem what will happen, or "we" saw it by our echo and the reason we choose neither side back then was that she told us what would be our task.

I mean its clear that the story of our raids will be deleted as well, the crystal placed so we find it - another neatly closed loop.

[Denishia]

Only somewhat joking if the reveal is that Venat tells Azem about their future as the multiple WoLs including not only us but Ardbert and others, and that Azem agrees that not only do they all collectively sound awesome (and have much cooler friends, vast improvement over the current choices) and thus Azem sees the 'creation' of these various WoLs are their purpose to create and afterwards return to the planet.

Or a completely separate threat to be revealed late into season 2. Either/or

[Veloran]

I expected Azem to play a role in Endwalker based on that but...crickets. I expected it to be revealed that Azem came back to town with 11 friends or something. That might still be true in Myths of the Realm...but we also see Azem's hand in Pandaemonium, ensuring Elidibus will be in the right place at the right time to intercept the Warrior of Light responding to the blue memory crystal... The same crystal that appeared in the right place at the right time to end up in the Warrior of Light's hands by way of the aetherial sea outpost Sharlayan was using to talk to Hydaelyn...

Currently I'm (not so) jokingly thinking under the assumption that Azem actually meant themselves as the falling star, only they show up so late that they miss the adventure completely and WoL is already gone.

[Denishia]

My nightmare is that one day the WoL will absorb other shard souls and become the same weight-class as an Unsundered (I cannot being to articulate how much that popular desire of "Unsundered WoL" creates a dense and bitter loathing inside me) and the final patch or penultimate questlines of the MSQ reveal that it's all a stable time-loop where we are Azem and we go back into the past to do everything Azem did and we make sure to avoid Elpis during that day when our past self was visiting as to avoid a paradox. The more that story focuses on the Ancient world and cast of characters and hyping up past Azem instead of looking forward and everyone else, the more I fear it, even if I tell myself it's irrational. But I know the fanfics are out there, so I hope said writers and readers of the concept joy.

[EdwinLi]

My bet would be Venat just told Azem what will happen, or "we" saw it by our echo and the reason we choose neither side back then was that she told us what would be our task.

I mean its clear that the story of our raids will be deleted as well, the crystal placed so we find it - another neatly closed loop.

It is probably going to get a 6.0 MSQ Harbor cutscene treatment which is a cutscene in Endwalker MSQ that greatly changes based on how many Raid, Alliance Raid, and Trial storyline player finished before Endwalker.

We will see some kind effect by not until later in Season 2 and probably a small effect but one that does affect a certain cutscene later in Season 2 maybe not until the finale like the 6.0 MSQ Harbor scene.

It is small change in MSQ but the Harbor scene is a nice cutscene that shows how much WoL affected everyone by doing the Trial, Raid, and Alliance Raid storyline. Also, a lot of 6.0 MSQ cutscenes was greatly changed in the end if they finish Omega Raid before Endwalker MSQ due to how Alpha and Omega are directly involved in those cutscenes for players who finished the Omega Raid before Endwalker.