Current State of Tank+Healer Synergy

[Liam_Harper]

And if the amount of damage in certain duties is so high that it needs those self heals, then the problem isn't the strength of the tanks' kits, but the weakness of the healers'.

IMO, the heals on WAR, PLD, and GNB should be nerfed, and healers should get some buffs to their oGCDs to compensate.

Healers are not weak, they have ridiculously strong toolkits.

The only thing this really accomplishes is boring healers to death as they endlessly spam their one aoe and toss the tank an oGCD here and there. You wouldn't even need to buff healer oGCD's, decent DRK's are easy to heal in Experts.

What needs to happen is for instances to actually deal real damage even when the group isn't making mistakes. Heavy hitting boss auto attacks, more raidwides and bleeds, real tankbusters, mobs being a threat and so on. There's nothing wrong with tanks and healers having a good toolkit, but they need a reason to use it.

[HappyHubris]

Healers are not weak, they have ridiculously strong toolkits.

The only thing this really accomplishes is boring healers to death as they endlessly spam their one aoe and toss the tank an oGCD here and there. You wouldn't even need to buff healer oGCD's, decent DRK's are easy to heal in Experts.

What needs to happen is for instances to actually deal real damage even when the group isn't making mistakes. Heavy hitting boss auto attacks, more raidwides and bleeds, real tankbusters, mobs being a threat and so on. There's nothing wrong with tanks and healers having a good toolkit, but they need a reason to use it.

This 100%. Healers are becoming junky DPS.

[Risvertasashi]

Right now, 3 of the 4 tanks are effectively healers. They each have, every 25s, one button that is a really good heal for either themselves or another party member. WAR effectively have 4 benedictions every 25s. GNB have excogitation every 25s (actual Excogitation is a 45s CD). PLD have a really solid regen every 5s at best, but in practice I would not be surprised if it came out to be every 25s-ish. In practice, this creates a really bad situation where 90% of each healer's kit is redundant or useless every 25s for 3 of the 4 tanks.

While the memes are fun, the reality is not. I had a run of the 83 dungeon where I, as a Sage, died at the beginning of the fight. The GNB was able to continue the fight using nothing but their kit to heal the party while I watched from the sidelines. In the moment, was pretty awesome to see, but this is possible in any dungeon (possibly even the new raids), with any of the tanks except DRK. Right now, healers have a high chance of not having a job to do because 3/4 tanks can heal themselves and others just as well as an actual healer.

As a player, I should not bemoan seeing a DRK in a duty. I should not feel bad just for leveling a DRK simply because it has not self heals. It's okay that tanks can heal themselves, but the amount of healing they offer not only to themselves but also to others is simply ridiculous.

And if the amount of damage in certain duties is so high that it needs those self heals, then the problem isn't the strength of the tanks' kits, but the weakness of the healers'.

IMO, the heals on WAR, PLD, and GNB should be nerfed, and healers should get some buffs to their oGCDs to compensate.

PLD's holy shelltron takes 10 GCDs to build, so with a 2.4s GCD, it's effectively a 24s CD. But you can hold 2 charges too. Also worth noting is every GCD in Requiescat (one per minute) heals the PLD for 400 potency. And then Divine Veil heals the party, but notably not the tank themself. Still, these are all options outside of clemency that can be used to heal self or party as needed. And then the end-of-Requiescat combo gives back the MP Requiescat phase consumed, making clemency more usable in an emergency.

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But, more to the point yes. Healing requirements are lower than ever.

And to those saying SE shouldn't nerf tank heals and should just increase outgoing damage - We've been asking for that for... at least 4 years that I've been counting. Do you really think SE's going to do it now?

Even back in ARR, Regen was enough to heal dungeons alone once people were geared.

[Gemina]

I do this in experts on my WAR too if you can't live longer than 30 seconds then I don't need you sorry if you died but if we can't rez you then I'm just gonna continue, that's not my ego going through or anything that's just on the healer/you if you die right as the fight begins. Same thing in the Dead Ends 1st and 2nd boss if the healer dies and I can salvage the group then I'm gonna do it the best way I can if you have to sit on the sidelines then I'd say you need to practice and learn the mechanics rather then eat vulns and die.

You're not wrong. If players die to avoidable mechanics, it is on them, and as a tank there isn't much you can do to fix the mistakes of others. But you also have to understand that we are human, and we make mistakes. If you're sitting there soloing a boss that still has a huge chunk of HP, you are not doing anyone any favors. Including yourself, and you might even be doing yourself a disservice, as if you just reset, at least 2-3 players will learn from their previous mistake, and you will kill the boss faster. Then there is the fact that if you do clear it, you just carried three to seven other players and prevented those that failed the mechanics a second chance to do them, and they end up learning nothing.

[Atreides]

You're not wrong. If players die to avoidable mechanics, it is on them, and as a tank there isn't much you can do to fix the mistakes of others. But you also have to understand that we are human, and we make mistakes. If you're sitting there soloing a boss that still has a huge chunk of HP, you are not doing anyone any favors. Including yourself, and you might even be doing yourself a disservice, as if you just reset, at least 2-3 players will learn from their previous mistake, and you will kill the boss faster. Then there is the fact that if you do clear it, you just carried three to seven other players and prevented those that failed the mechanics a second chance to do them, and they end up learning nothing.

I agree with both statements to an extend, if a group wipes and the boss is <15%, I'll say fine go ahead and solo it if you feel confident enough to do so. But when the boss has more HP than that it's not nice to take your whole group hostage just to finish the boss on your own. Being able to do that might be cool but it's boring for the rest that are already insecure enough that they made mistakes and died.

[Mekhana]

@ Ex Trials

SGE: "DRK, don't LD you will die."

Me: "I don't even have that keybinded anymore."

[AFuzzyMu11in]

As a Paladin/Scholar main I can say that tank healing isn’t too high. I can still die to trash. As a healer if the tank isn’t using mitigation right/undergeared then I’m happy for a simple run. But it usually is the opposite and I’m getting pushed to my limit. As a healer if I die to bad and the tank can carry by dodging /clemency/sheltron then so be it. I’m bad i deserve to watch him do it right from the floor. And as the tank of the healer sucks i’m either kicking them if i need to/leaving/ or carrying with emmy clemency/sheltron idc

[ArkenaeuxBelmont]

I agree with both statements to an extend, if a group wipes and the boss is <15%, I'll say fine go ahead and solo it if you feel confident enough to do so. But when the boss has more HP than that it's not nice to take your whole group hostage just to finish the boss on your own. Being able to do that might be cool but it's boring for the rest that are already insecure enough that they made mistakes and died.

Sorry, I disagree on that. They died because they didn't understand or know the mechanics, or weren't paying attention. Solo'ing and letting them watch, let's them see the mechanics so their next run goes smoother. If it was because they weren't paying attention, then they were "wasting time" for everyone else to begin with, so shouldn't bemoan the tank solo'ing and "wasting their time" back.

[Gemina]

I agree with both statements to an extend, if a group wipes and the boss is <15%, I'll say fine go ahead and solo it if you feel confident enough to do so. But when the boss has more HP than that it's not nice to take your whole group hostage just to finish the boss on your own. Being able to do that might be cool but it's boring for the rest that are already insecure enough that they made mistakes and died.

Agreed. I did want elaborate further on tank flexing, and there is definitely a time and place for it. What % the boss is at that determines when to just solo the remainder is subjective, but ultimately up to the tank doing it to decide.

In any case, the devs could implement an enrage if only one player is up after a few minutes. That would easily take care of this particular encounter design issue. I used to think this was just a dungeon thing, but ohhhh no. Not at all. Already been in that situation myself on my WAR, and I don't even have any EW skills yet.

[Awful]

You're not wrong. If players die to avoidable mechanics, it is on them, and as a tank there isn't much you can do to fix the mistakes of others. But you also have to understand that we are human, and we make mistakes. If you're sitting there soloing a boss that still has a huge chunk of HP, you are not doing anyone any favors. Including yourself, and you might even be doing yourself a disservice, as if you just reset, at least 2-3 players will learn from their previous mistake, and you will kill the boss faster. Then there is the fact that if you do clear it, you just carried three to seven other players and prevented those that failed the mechanics a second chance to do them, and they end up learning nothing.

I mean I get that but at the end of the day I'd rather just do it with my 2 friends while I heal them and continue on I won't lose sleep if the healer gets upset, now I can understand being like "oh crap I stood in the electro thing in Dead Ends!" then sure, whatever, but if they're actively dying on every boss (which has been happening a lot recently) then I'll just continue. I get it's probably faster but it's just eh, it's not like i'm bullying them or anything just would rather clear while they run back even if it isn't super optimal we're still losing time regardless, but I get your point we are all humans behind the computer and I do take that into the group dynamics.