So you're telling me..

[ZiraZ]

I would prefer to look at top percentile as it represents the best submitted parses.



Sure, RPR is a bit tighter and I'm not denying there is some tuning needed. But what you are advocating for is to nerf it to down to NIN levels.... because it's not the hardest and/or because it has some limited utility.

that's got nothing to do with what we're discussing and the previous image I posted includes max
but if you want to go that way lets look at this very balanced top percentile

yup, that's on par with gunbreaker

[Maverick_Haas]

That.... certainly does look worse than what I was seeing.
I do notice the 9.9k DPS on the other 3 fights, but that absolutely doesn't make sense. I'm not able to even achieve 8k+ on these fights even with some raid buffs from drg or dnc.
I need to look through some of the individual logs to see what's going on.

[Scuoll]

RPR certainly does have an easier skill floor, but maxing DPS and ensuring your hitting your windows along with fight mechs can make it harder than some.

I read your original post and i really appreciate this kind of discussion, however, while some of the points you bring up are true, especially that burst window timings with double-triple enshroud under arcane circle. are not trivial because of the enshroud 15s cd, overall the reality is that these optimization dont matter that much at current tuning levels, all the gauges and skills you described in practice are not that punishing, they mostly mean you decide when to spend and when you can just 1 2 3 and do a mechanic unless you are close to overcapping, which is not that hard to avoid.

Look at fflogs, here are the links for the extreme trials at 95 percentile, 75 and 40 :
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/42/#dataset=95
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/42/#dataset=75
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/42/#dataset=40

As you can see, reaper's lead over other jobs grows the lower you go, meaning that lower skilled reapers are comparatively better than their peers, and are also always in 1st place, meanwhile other jobs fluctuate with varying skill levels, summoner goes down the more skilled the players are, drg goes up, etc.
What this means is that reaper is not that susceptible to player skill as other jobs, even with all those gauges and skills, what are the worst mistakes you can do? Drift gluttony? Cast a few void/cross reapings or communio outside of buffs? These are not punishing mistakes, which is why the gap between an average reaper and a good one is not that big, and the gap between an average reaper and an average other job is instead quite big. In the end, does it make sense for the class with easiest skill floor to also have the highest ceiling and the best utility?

Also in your first post you said you wanted proof that arcane crest is indeed broken, i will link a few logs that i put in my first post in this thread again, i dont think there is even an argument here, a melee dps healing the party for more than some tanks? Just compare arcane crest and something like shade shift, or compare it to drg which doesnt even have a defensive, do you think its good balance if one class has it all, both the damage and the utility? It definitely should be accounted for somewhere in the overall power budget.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/XbA2B...aling&source=4
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/9r8R6...ing&source=783
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...=DPS&boss=1059

[Maverick_Haas]

Ookay, so I'm finding that some of the logs are being jumbled where either fflogs or act is reporting 1:40 fights, causing the logs to be distorted. It's impossible for RPRs to do 9.9k dps.
Let's look at the top damage stats

all the gauges and skills you described in practice are not that punishing, they mostly mean you decide when to spend and when you can just 1 2 3 and do a mechanic unless you are close to overcapping, which is not that hard to avoid.

Certainly it's not as punishing as dropping enochan especially on CD. But it certainly can be punishing if you miss a gibbet/gallow which is easily done if you reflex SoD with Soul Reaver up. Drifting Gluttony is a big concern, but not having enshroud available when Arcane circle comes off CD. You can't afford miss Soul Gauge more than once. There are still quiet a few ways to mess up your burst windows that will cause you to lose access to raid buff windows. RPRs' main dps gain is from these burst windows. While there are certainly safe areas in the "rotation" a single mistake can undo a lot of dps. Also, low skill floor doesn't mean a low skill celling. I don't believe you are saying that, but I feel nevertheless it needs to be said.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/XbA2B...aling&source=4
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/9r8R6...ing&source=783
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...=DPS&boss=1059

These are not accessible, says they are private.

[Ransu]

The idea that with raid utility should come low dps is very disturbing to me.

What's the point of SAM and BLM then? There's this thing called balance. You can't have top tier DPS AND raid utility. That would just push RPR to essentially be mandatory in statics for harder content because they essentially become the de facto dps class that can outclass all the other melee.

[Scuoll]

These are not accessible, says they are private.

Weird, my bad, ill link some more :

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/14dmT...5&type=healing

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/HyqC9...3&type=healing

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/XbA2B...1&type=healing

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...=DPS&boss=1059

[Maverick_Haas]

What's the point of SAM and BLM then? There's this thing called balance. You can't have top tier DPS AND raid utility. That would just push RPR to essentially be mandatory in statics for harder content because they essentially become the de facto dps class that can outclass all the other melee.

The point of SAM and BLM is to have different class/jobs/play-styles. They don't necessarily need to be the best DPS in the game. But, they tend to be so I'll come to the middle for you and say that SAM and BLM certainly should have the opportunity to be top DPS, but you would have to agree that every class/job should have some form of raid utility. Of course we have our support classes that are designed to fill in that role of utility and thus are not top dps damage dealers, but having no raid utility at all is kinda.... detrimental imho. Having a little raid utility and still being able to push high DPS is balanced imo. I know you will disagree, but that's okay. SE will decide how to balance this based on their opinions of how this class should play.

[ZiraZ]

I thought the chinese video someone linked earlier with a party full of reapers and no healers was proof enough they are simply broken, that's not "a little".

[Ransu]

The point of SAM and BLM is to have different class/jobs/play-styles. They don't necessarily need to be the best DPS in the game. But, they tend to be so I'll come to the middle for you and say that SAM and BLM certainly should have the opportunity to be top DPS, but you would have to agree that every class/job should have some form of raid utility. Of course we have our support classes that are designed to fill in that role of utility and thus are not top dps damage dealers, but having no raid utility at all is kinda.... detrimental imho. Having a little raid utility and still being able to push high DPS is balanced imo. I know you will disagree, but that's okay. SE will decide how to balance this based on their opinions of how this class should play.

Yes they absolutely do....They offer ZERO utility to the raid. Without being top DPS there is no point in having them in a raid group.

[Scuoll]

The point of SAM and BLM is to have different class/jobs/play-styles. They don't necessarily need to be the best DPS in the game. But, they tend to be so I'll come to the middle for you and say that SAM and BLM certainly should have the opportunity to be top DPS, but you would have to agree that every class/job should have some form of raid utility. Of course we have our support classes that are designed to fill in that role of utility and thus are not top dps damage dealers, but having no raid utility at all is kinda.... detrimental imho. Having a little raid utility and still being able to push high DPS is balanced imo. I know you will disagree, but that's okay. SE will decide how to balance this based on their opinions of how this class should play.

I really dont like this line of thinking, simply for the fact that while it is of course valid, playing what you enjoy is the most important thing, there is no point in playing this or any game if you dont have fun doing it, you can use it to throw out any balance issue ever, its a get a out of jail free card of sorts, feels cheap, in a game this big with jobs this similar to one another there should be better balancing, and honestly, would you be saying the same if reaper and ninja swapped spots on the graph?

Also yeah, arcane crest is not a little utility, and why should one job be arbitrarily picked to be the best at everything? Makes no sense to me, right now it doesnt really matter because there is not much challenging content at max level, but once harder challenges come, the path of least resistance is always the prefered option in this kind of games, i really dont see how you can justify saying, here is reaper with utility and the best dps and easy skill floor, if you wanna play hard mode go play ninja with animation locks/forced dashes, a worse defensive, no partywide defensive utility, and of course much lower rdps, but you get to do hand signs like naruto!!!